I agree. And there are many ways to see the Marvel Universe as having a clear ending.
Fans of course will differ as to when that ending is, or whether it still in the future, or if it's a lengthy fade into the sunset. I have my own very definite theories of when the MU ended, you will not be surprised to hear.

I think unplanned stories are the best kind.

Agreed. It's the blind man and the elephant -er- story.
Perhaps where we differ is in thinking there can ever be one definitive story. I think that every story is, unavoidably, a point of view. Even if an author tries to remove all ambiguity, every reader will still come away with a different understanding, depending on their personal experience.


A very good choice of words. A bible is a book that every follower interprets differently.


I was never convinced by the auteur theory. No doubt it happens that way in some cases. But there are plenty of auteur works that turn out to be heavily reliant on others. George Lucas for example channelled Joseph Campbell, and had his channelled work tidied up by his wife and others. Or Orson Wells relying so heavily on Gregg Toland and Herman Mankiewicz that Pauline Kael could argue that perhaps Mankiewicz was the true auteur.

I think that the reality is that all works are composite works, and when we say "this is the vision of X" that is just our own interpretation. It helps to share interpretations, it makes communication easier. But it is still an interpretation, and one of many. In my view.

On the renumbering thread, mrp contrasted messy comics (where each writer brings a new direction) to planned comics (where a single writer has a clear plan). But he then argues that a messy story is not a single story:


I am not so sure. If a story becomes messy is it no longer one story? By that measure a human life cannot form one story, because every life is messy and full of unplanned changes. Many Hollywood movies would also fail the "one story" test: very few movies retain the pure vision of one person from start to finish. Even the "monomyth idea" fails this strict one story test: Joseph Campbell (who popularised the monomyth idea) never suggested that myths have a single planner or are neat and smooth.

The most economically successful stories (soap operas and giant franchises) do not have a long term plan. Some of the greatest writers (Dickens for example) changed their stories mid flow depending on reader feedback. Even those we remember for their careful planning (Victor Hugo, Alan Moore) seem addicted to lengthy off-topic tangents and unexpected character reversals.

I would go even further. Not only are most good stories messy, but I think most attempts to plan stories will fail. Every writer thinks their plan is clever and interesting, but the vast majority of readers will always disagree. And if a plan works it is usually by accident: just look at all the great writers who peak early, then try to recapture the magic and it doesn't happen.

In short, I think the best stories evolve through accidents, and intelligent design is the exception rather than the rule.

What do you think? Should we be disappointed if a story is messy and unplanned and occasionally awful? Is a non-messy story always the ideal?

Journey Into Mystery 107: earth versus sky

From now on I'll try to add a link to the Marvel Database for each issue. This might help when the reviews become confusing. Because often when we remove the dialog we see a different story. The Grey Gargoyle is a good example. Take his origin for example:

Stan's dialog makes this a "crazy comic book science" story: some guy creates a super power potion by accident. But imagine those frames without the dialog. It is clear that spilling the chemical is caused by the scientist being distracted by the opening door. The is confirmed when we see the amount of dialog crammed into the third frame: the art was not designed for that much text. The text breaks the flow, adding an unnecessary break ("after his superior has left"), then has to find a new reason for the accident so says the scientist is (inexplicably) careless. Yet the position of the body and hands shows this is supposed to be a smooth, continuous flow, like a movie. Kirby has a very cinematic flow, but the dialog breaks it.

Why would Stan change this? Because the original art only makes sense if  the scientist is well aware of what he is making, he just does not intend to use it on himself. This casts him in a different light: making this the result of years of research. Either he was more evil to start with, or this is a story of how easily we can turn against our fellow man when the opportunity arises (see: H.G. Wells' The Invisible Man, or Dracula, or any mad scientist story).

Now recall the previous page where the scientist turns an entire airplane of passengers into stone. That is an unforgettable  scene straight from some horror movie. It reminds me of Dracula's entrance into England, where a ship arrived and every crew member was dead. The only living thing was a dog, which left the ship as soon as it reaches land (the dog of course was Dracula). I am sure there must be closer parallels elsewhere. So Kirby was creating a far darker story than the one Stan created though dialog.

Which brings up a related point: the dialog keeps saying how people will revert to normal after sixty minutes. But we never see that (Thor only escapes because his enchantment forces him to become Blake, and the Gargoyle may be a special case if his mask is any guide, indicating the ability to change back so he needs a disguise). It appears that Kirby may have intended the stone form to be permanent in his victims (as unlike the Gargoyle they cannot move). This would explain why Lee wanted to soften the story: Kirby's version was just too horrific. Kids, and the comics code, might find it too disturbing. Kirby's instincts were always more horror comic (about danger and discovery) than superhero (about winning).

It's super exciting though: this issue is an absolute Kirby triumph, from the ominous stone gargoyle on the splash page to Don Blake's dramatic motorbike chase off the pier at the end. This is why I love Kirby's work!!

Stone men

It cannot be a coincidence that this story is about a stone man. The art makes the Gargoyle look like the lava man, who I argued was far more important than the dialog suggested. This is now the third time we have seen a story about animated stone: the initial "stone men from Saturn", the lava man, and now this. Kirby's Thor only has three classes of people:

1. Gods (and other near-immortals. e.g. giants)
2. Mortals
3. Stone men

All the other "super beings" (Carbon Copy man, Merlin, Cobra, Hyde) were created when Jack Kirby was away. I'm not sure where to place the Radioactive Man, as his technology suggests help from either the future (Zarrko) or the gods (Loki). But I would probably class him as "stone man" since radioactivity is closely associated with uranium from mines.

Demons

These three classes reflect the theme of Thor: heaven, earth, and mortals caught between. These are represented by Odin, Surtur, and Thor/Blake caught between. Or in Christian symbolism, angels, demons and man. Gargoyles are traditionally carved in the form of demons, and Kirby's splash page art looks like his later creation The Demon.

Alchemy

So the story seems to be that some scientist has managed to tap into the Earth's latent power to create living stone. What, after all, is chemisty, except the child of alchemy, the attempt to find the active, changing element in Earth's minerals? Only this scientist is distracted, accidentally splashed himself, and discovers that this active essence is more of a life force than he realised, enabling him to transmute the higher element (life) into the lowest (stone). it's a big, rich, deep story, just as we would expect from Kirby.

Oh, and about Sif

I almost forgot! This story began in a super interesting way. Until now the art never showed Don having romantic feelings for Jane, though as his only friend he clearly cared for her. But here that changes, as a result of the previous issue. The art strongly suggests that yes, Thor has fallen in love. But it's a silly, giddy kind of love, with nothing godlike about it. I can't wait to see how this develops. How will Sif feel?

I see two possibilities: she will accept it as it's trivial, or this is part of re-born Thor's need to grow up. 

Male gods routinely have affairs with mortal women, and in the Eddas (the norse source texts), Sif herself has a son by another man, despite being married to Thor. Sif is also used as a synonym for Earth. Perhaps she would accept this, much as kings and Old Testament prophets routinely had concubines? Have your fun in Earth, but don't get that mixed up with your real duty when the time comes? While Stan Lee's dialog (and the comics code) is strictly 1950s western mainstream values, Kirby's reading goes far wider.

Thor alone and naive?

Another possibility is that this is Thor beginning to weaken. Sure, he can still hold the hammer, but it took him a while to earn that right and perhaps it will take a while to lose it? Or perhaps he has simply forgotten much of his previous life, and so Earth life is his true test? According to Kirby's art he is prevented from entering Asgard, even though he can pray to Odin. (I think we can safely ignore the non0-Kirby issues where he can visit Asgard at will).

Thor is thus just like the Christian view of mortality, born into a limited world, unable to see heaven, but able to pray. He vaguely remembers a better time, but is alone here. Loneliness is a big theme of Thor's life on Earth: Blake was the kind of American who would wander alone in Norway, and his only friend is the nurse who has to work with him. In this issue Blake/Thor is like a teenage boy discovering girls for the first time. Perhaps the stone story is a metaphor for giving way to the things of the Earth? Can we go as far as seeing the ending in the ocean as a symbol for being free? 

Reflections on mortality

If the dialog (including the newspaper headline in the art) is to be believed, the scientist's motivation is immortality. I tend to think that, yes, this was Kirby's intention. it's a constant theme in Kirby's work, but does not seem to figure as much if at all in Stan Lee's. And it fits perfectly with theme of an immortal being trapped on Earth. This reminds me of Wordsworth's famous poem. I include it here just to show that these ideas are widespread, and not limited to ancient myths or fanboys; over active imaginations:


That could describe Thor.

Conclusion

I list this as the third of Thor's great tests. This is a triumphant issue in my opinion, Kirby at his best. I have tried to suggest why he might have chosen certain elements, but I don't think any of that was conscious. We do not know what goes on in our unconscious mind as we make our decisions: that's the point of the unconscious. All we can go on here is the art, and the story it tells. Kirby's stories are so full, so rich with ideas, whereas other writers' Thor stories are not, in my opinion. So I cannot believe that these elements are accidental

Looking forward to next issue!

Given that the interwebs include all kinds of people, yes some of them do. Granted, it's a while since I ran my own business, and even longer since my marketing degree, but some things don't change.

(EDIT:)
I accept that modern publishers are very good at short term profit. They are especially good at squeezing money from very old properties. But that is why they are in long term decline: they are reaping what they did not sow.

Back on topic, renumbering almost drove me away when I came back to comics after an 18 year gap (1986-2004). I looked for The Fantastic Four and found there were half a dozen comics with that a title, and none of them bore much resemblance to the comic I left. (Characters had got younger, for example.) It did not help that the main title had recently been renumbered and then reverted back. Or that it had been rebooted twice since I left. The prominent "part X of 6" numbering just added to the chaos. 

re: hardcore fans and movies. I admit to being influenced by popular movie review sites like Collider and Beyond the Trailer. They make a case that the hardcore fans matter, and the hardcore fans care about the past (i.e. back issues). I accept that those sites being run by comic fans, might be biased.

re: Amazon: I was referring to "books in general." When an author publishes a new book, Amazon still sells the back catalog. The back catalog is the bulk of Amazon's sales, not whatever books are published this month.

re: back issues being essential to survival. One man's icing on the cake is another man's razor thin margin. Chuck Rozanski discussed this often, as he sold both. But as with the movies, I accept that he could be biased, as he probably focused more on back issues.

re: fans who care about stories. I meant to say "long term stories". My bad. Anyone who cares about long term continuity must find the constant reboots and short memories to be frustrating.

re: comics sold at their peak in "done and one" stories. True, but in the 1940s they were aimed primarily at children, and that boom was very brief: it began with WWII and declined after the war. For real long term financial success we have to look to the sixties and beyond: fifty years of sales based on crossovers and fan memories.

Journey into mystery 105-106: more pages! So let's celebrate!

Plot: a two issue battle with the Cobra and Mr Hyde.

The splash page declares this to be "a double length modern Marvel masterpiece" and sure enough, there is no third story: Journey into Mystery is now all Thor, all the time!

IIRC the change actually occurred last issue: the Frost Giant and Surtur story was too big for a regular 12 pager. But this is the issue they make a big deal of it.

This one is Stan's idea, I think

The previous year's two issue Hulk-Thing slugfest in the FF was a big fan favourite, so what better way to draw attention to the title? None of this Norse Myth stuff (no gods, giants, demons, etc), just wacky characters beating each other up for page after page. That, plus the opening with the Avengers, plus the fact that Cobra and Hyde are Stan's creations (Jack was not involved in those issues) makes me think that this two parter is definitely Stan's idea. It's just Kirby obeying orders and doesn't progress the epic story so I won't spend long on this review.

What Kirby brings to it

Having said that, it's fun to see Kirby's influence on the plot. When they first appeared (with no Kirby influence) Cobra and Hyde didn't make much sense. Their origins, their power level, their motivation, these were not subjects to dwell on. But Kirby manages to at least make them plausible threats. With Kirby they don't rely on physical strength but on technology, and Kirby tones down the less believable stuff: in the non-Kirby story Cobra had a bit of wire that was supposedly strong enough to bind Thor. But with Kirby it is simply used to distract and unbalance him. And in the first Hyde story, Hyde had the strength of "twelve men" yet that was enough to rip open any bank safe on Earth. (Bank robbers take note: all you need is twelve men and even Fort Knox will fall to your massive strength.) But here, Hyde's strength is simply used for breaking a machine that Hyde himself created, so that makes sense.

Summary

I love Kirby's creative ideas for technology: his stuff always does new and interesting things. A machine that replays events backwards, for example - an idea later developed in the FF for the beehive story. I was going to discuss how that might work, but this is supposed to be a short review

And of course the art is gorgeous. All in all this is a pleasant romp but does not really affect anything. However, next next issue is different: it's the Grey Gargoyle!

Journey into Mystery 104: Thor versus the Frost Giant

Plot: Odin tests Thor with a battle with a frost giant. Odin has to watch this in person, and stops time: So Loki takes the opportunity to release Surtur.

This issue is a very big deal

This is a Big Deal, and the second of what I call Thor's Twelve Tasks. (I am of course ignoring the dialog that says it's all about marrying Jane, or that the frost giant is just some new kind of giant: I see no evidence for that in the art). I am always amazed at the fast pace and huge concepts behind Kirby's stories. Whenever there seems to be a "small" story it either has all the signs of being forced on him (an out of continuity crossover for example) or it needs a second look. This issue is huge.

As anybody who follows Tales of Asgard will know, everything begins and ends with Surtur. That is, defeating Surtur is what makes Odin Top God and starts the Earth revolving, and when Surtur finally escapes it will be Ragnarok and the end of the gods. Well, in this issue Surtur escapes. Note that Surtur was trapped by the revolution of the Earth, so Odin stopping time is what allows Loki to let Surtur escape. Details like this are lost in the dialog, but are clear when we compare Tales of Asgard. 

Only the combined forces of Thor and Odin himself can postpone the inevitable (Ragnarok). Surtur ends up chained to a distant rock in space, which I presume lays the foundation for Thor's later foray into space just before Ragnarok itself.

Surtur and Prometheus

Note the parallels between Surtur and Prometheus: both were enemies of the gods. Remember that we only see the gods' point of view here. Both bring fire to the Earth's surface, both mark the start of mankind's history, and when both triumph over the gods it means the gods lose and mankind wins. Here Surtur is chained to a distant rock as punishment. if I were him I'd watch his liver.

Parallels with Tales of Asgard

I am fascinated how every "Tales of Asgard" parallels the main story. The first ToA was about Surtur and that issue had the unfortunately names "lava man" (unfortunately named as the art suggests he was far more important than that). Then, when the main story had Don and Jane as friends, the back story showed us how Thor first won Sif as his bride. And here Thor's ancient battle with frost giants (in a recent ToA) mirrors the new half-human Thor having to prove himself in a similar battle. And so on.

In each early ToA a young Thor earns the right to lift the hammer a little more. Likewise, the new Thor must earn the right to enter Asgard as a half human, and (with the remainder of his twelve tasks) somehow save the Earth from Ragnarok. So many parallels.