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Post by tolworthy on Aug 19, 2016 12:11:30 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 103: Don and JanePlot: the enchantress tries to seduce Thor, but Thor passes the test I apologise for only covering one aspect of this issue. So much to do, so little time! To me this issue is about Thor choosing his noble duty, not the pleasures of the flesh. I keep arguing that Thor does not want to marry Jane Foster, and the dialog keeps saying "please let me marry her!" But this thread is about the story without the dialog. it might help to compare the Kirby and non-Kirby issues: Don and Jane, with and without KirbyJiM 83-88: Thor's face betrays no love JiM 89: humans are holding him back JiM 90-92: NOT KIRBY: Don and Jane bicker and smile together as if they are flirting. JiM 93: Kirby is back, and Don ignores her. He only looks in her direction once, in the last frame, when she is looking the other way. So far, so what? She just isn't a major character. She is just there to contrast a mortal with the gods. JiM 94-96: NOT KIRBY: Jane barely features in 94-95. Then in 96 we get the "like a married couple" scenes again. Again, no big deal. JiM 97: Tales of Asgard begins, the story begins in earnest, and Kirby wastes no time in getting rid of Jane. She gets another job. Goodbye. JiM 98-100: NOT KIRBY: these issues are the clincher. I will not mince words. I think they are terribly written, with weak villains, embarrassing origins, embarrassing scenes, just awful. If you ever want proof of what Kirby brings to the writing then just read these issues. I could show numerous other examples like this. With Kirby: good comic. Kirby steps away, and all other elements remain the same: mediocre comic. To drive home my point, read the Kirby Tales of Asgard that follows. How can people not see the difference that Kirby makes to the writing? OK, but let's ignore that. Hey, maybe you like villains who are bitten by radioactive cobras. Who am I to judge? Let's just look at what happens the moment that Kirby leaves: In JiM 98, Thor does his Superman-saving Lois thing, and Jane Foster begs him to let her come back. Oh but it gets worse. Believe me, much worse. JiM 98-99 are all about Don and Jane. In JiM 99 Thor is begging Odin to let him marry. The art and story reduce Odin to just being an ordinary guy, a dad who won't let his son marry his girlfriend. This reduces them both. We see Don and Jane embrace, we see them on a date at a restaurant, it's all about the romance. Again, compare the writing quality in the Tales of Asgard that follow. JiM 101-102: Kirby's Thor returns and he is not happy. We don't see Jane at all, except in angry flashback at the start. And look at the back up strip: it's about Thor rescuing Sif from hell! Symbolism, anyone? Anybody who has even glanced at the legends knows that Sif is Thor's WIFE. The story ends with Thor carrying Sif away on his horse: she is in his arms and they are in love (or so the art seems to say). But Stan Lee's dialog twice emphasises that Sif is Baldar's sister. Well maybe she is, the Edda does not say. But these are the norse legends, this is Thor coming of age and carrying off fair Sif, do we even need the dialog to see what is happening? JiM 103: we are back to Don and Jane as friends. No hint of love in Kirby art, Jane is just a minor character, a friend. Their friendship matters, but I see no evidence in the art that they are more than friends. This contrasts with the non-Kirby art that seems in a hurry to get them married. That's as far as I've got in my reviews. I skimmed ahead to see if I would have to eat humble pie: maybe Thor 150 is the wedding issue? No: in Thor 136 Thor does finally take Jane to see Asgard, and they even try giving her god-like powers (to solve the ethical issue, see below). But it does not work. She can't hack it. She does not fit. Anybody who has read the legends knows why: Thor already has a wife and it isn't Jane. Am I reading too much into this?The Don-Jane romance is classic Stan Lee. Stan's approach to women was clear in the Fantastic Four. Whereas Kirby's characters arise naturally from the situations, and have their own identities (for example, in Kirby's FF art, Sue Storm is just as capable as Reed Richards, and Crystal was more so), Stan Lee's dialog gives women just one role: as love interest for men. Hence Stan's dialog would make Sue defer to Reed, and the moment that Kirby left, Stan got rid of Crystal and reduced Sue to fainting pretty much every issue. This is true with other writers aw well: we cannot blame this on the times, this was a specifically Stan Lee thing. I discuss all of this with examples here. So when I came to Thor it was all so familiar. Kirby created a minor character, a nurse, as a friend to Don Blake. Lee saw "it's a woman! There must be romance!" Because that's what women are for in comics. Apparently. The final proofEven if we dismiss the art as coincidence (after all, it's a small sample size), and if we dismiss Stan Lee's sexism as exaggerated (after all, there is certainly a friendship between Don and Jane), the final clincher for me is this: Thor wanting to marry Jane makes a bad story. Why is it bad? All kinds of reasons: it's against the legends, it's unrealistic (gods don't do that), it's unethical (due to the power imbalance), it makes Thor look weak (a cardinal sin), it makes Odin look small and petty (almost as bad), and so on and so on. Even without that, it's a cliche and a dead end. If they marry, then what? What role does Jane then play? Eternal hostage? Redundant extra Thor? Forgotten? And if they don't, how long can we do the "will they won't they"? it gets tired really quickly. It's Superman and Lois Lane all over again, and for what? Isn't Marvel supposed to be better than that? All my experience tells me that Jack Kirby does not produce bad stories like that. Maybe I am kidding myself. Maybe I just refuse to see Kirby's duds. But I don't think I do, but even if I do, I choose to do so. I choose to interpret these stories in the best, biggest, most exciting way I can. I believe that all stories must be interpreted. The idea that what we read is simply what the writer intended cannot be true: if it was, every writer who intended to write a hit would get a hit. But what they wrote is not what we read. We bring our own experience to it, our own understanding, every single time. That is inevitable and it is good: it is why literature works. it allows us to see more than the lines and words on the page, and build up a real world in our head. And this thread is about the Thor that I read. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 19, 2016 10:23:14 GMT -5
Now that we are firmly on the road to Ragnarok I think it's useful to enjoy the benefit of hindsight, and see how all the stories fit together. One gigantic story, from the hammer to RagnarokI noted that there are just two arcs before we get into Tales of Asgard: (!) Thor's origin and (2) his preparation for battle. I want to argue that this is true afterwards as well: there are relatively few story arcs in Thor. These arcs build into one single story: from the hammer to Ragnarok. Why do I think that? I mean, apart from being a myopically obsessed fan boy? Because of my experience with the Fantastic Four. It seems to me that there are no random or superfluous stories with Kirby. Kirby always move forwards. And that naturally builds a big single story. I am not claiming that Kirby was working to a script he invented in 1941. But simply that he was building, always building. Events had consequences. They had to lead to conclusions, and those conclusions had to mean something. So the bigger story just grew. I think Thor illustrates this. Thor's twelve labours
It seems to me that Thor's labours cover every possible aspect of human experience. It looks to me that Kirby was trying to touch every epic and cosmic idea he could, and when he had done that it was natural to draw it all into a great climax. As the first Tales of Asgard shows, that climax must be Ragnarok. Ragnarok is what drives the norse myths. Please note that the number twelve is arbitrary. Kirby did not refer to twelve labours. But I think this might be helpful for showing how the story has a shape and direction. - JiM 103: enchantress.
Testing Thor's self control - JiM 104: storm giant.
Not sure exactly what this is testing until I get there. This is just my guess from flicking through later issues trying to get a feel for what happens. But giants are central to Norse mythology, so I figure this is probably very important. - JiM 107: Grey Gargoyle.
Again not sure of his significance, but he seems important so I'm including him. Probably something to do with turning people to stone: rock people are a recurring theme in Thor. Around this time we get some crossovers to sell comics (Hulk, Avengers, X-Men villain, etc) and characters that Kirby had no hand in creating and were probably forced on him (the utterly forgettable Cobra and Mr Hyde) I am only dealing with characters who seem important to the story. - JiM 114-115: Absorbing Man.
I'm very interested to see how he fits into the story when that time comes. - JiM 118-119: Destroyer.
Ditto. Dunno where he fits, but he looks important. - JiM 124-Thor 130: the Greek Pantheon
Salivating... - Thor 130-133: the universe
- Thor 134-136: evolution
Can Jane, representative of humanity, become a god? Apparently not. - Thor 137-139: Ulik and the trolls
They try to make a duplicate of the hammer: Ragnarok can't be far now - Thor 140-142: Growing Man and Replicus
Not sure how this all fits into the big story until I get to these issues - Thor 143-146: the enchanters
See previous comment - Thor 149-150: the wrecker
As far as I can see, Thor dies and goes to the underworld. It must be time for Ragnarok!
Thor 152-156 We then get Ragnarok itself: Loki finally gets the hammer, Ulik is triumphant (?), and the Big Boss Baddie appears: Mangog! Surtur's sword (now called the Odin Sword) is unsheathed, and it's the end of the old gods. Of course, the last page has it suddenly end in a highly unconvincing Deus Ex Machina. If I recall correctly, Tales of Asgard indicated that Ragnarok should lead to the birth of new gods. But by this point Kirby was so angry about not being paid for his writing that he decided to hold them back. He did not yet have his next employer lined up, so he stuck a silly sticking plaster on the end of Ragnarok and then, after a "tying up loose ends" issue or two, trod water until he left Marvel. I like to think of these final issues as being Thor in Valhalla: endlessly enjoying battles in a shadow version of Asgard and Midgard. Where nobody is really in danger, and he forever enjoys life with his friends. Which is pretty much Thor, and all of Kirby's creations, after 1967. These tasks are just my initial impression of the Thor story after flicking through future issues. Expect this to change!!! |
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 18, 2016 5:34:16 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 102: back from the futurePlot: Thor sides with Zarrko (the Tomorrow Man) at first, but turns against him at the end. My curiosity got the better of me, and I read the next issue.  I don't think Thor was mind controlled
The dialog says that Thor is Mind controlled by Zarrko, but I don't see any evidence for that in the art. Thor looks cautious, not zombie-like. Mind control is one of the laziest plot devices, and I don't think Kirby uses it often. However, Kirby often deals with genuine dilemmas. Such as in this case. The last that Thor knew, Zarrko was reformed. So when (last issue) Zarrko turned up with robots, it made sense for him to say "oh look, Thor, these robots have escaped, will you help me defeat them?" That way he can test Thor's limits. Even better, if he can keep Thor on board then Thor can even do Zarrko's dirty work for him. I mentioned before how Stan Lee needed to sell comics. So Stan Lee did not do subtlety. If the hero looks like he is following the villain then he must be mind controlled. Simple. So the dialog says mind control, but I think the art says cautious persuasion. Ragnarok againThor goes along with Zarrko's explanation until the frame where we see the earth in flame. This is the same image we saw in Loki's mind when the lava man appeared. it is the same image we see whenever Ragnarok is discussed. This is enough for Thor to realise that no, Zarrko is not a good guy, and no good can come from either him or his robots. And so Thor's hope of using the future to avoid Ragnarok goes down in flames as well. So he returns to our time. Every issue brings the inevitable closer. Thor has to find a way to stop it, but the prophecies say all the gods will fail. Can Thor, by now being half human, find a way through?
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 18, 2016 3:14:43 GMT -5
Journey into Mystery 101 = Lee and Kirby 101.JiM 101 comes after another gap: the non-Kirby issues 98-100. This is late 1963, the explosion of the Marvel Universe, the busiest period of Kirby's life, when he's creating an insane number of characters and pages. Not even The King can be in two places at once, so he's pulled away to get new titles up to speed. In his absence Stan invents the Cobra and Mr Hyde. These two characters would be fine in, say, Daredevil, but are totally out of place in Thor. We can see Kirby's frustration in this issue. Thor is incredibly frustrated and angry, and spends the first pages of the story looking back over lame characters and enduring lame crossovers and romances, usually in flashback. For the record, I don't think "The Avengers" was Kirby's idea. Sure, he was put on it to make it sell, but I don't see the care, or effort, or reason for existing that I see in Thor or the FF. The whole idea of the Avengers seems to be to purely sell more books. That is Stan's goal: sell, sell, sell! I think that Lee deserves credit for both the Marvel Universe as we know it, and the Avengers, now at its heart. Back to JiM 101. Just look at the splash page. Here is a guy who kicks a chunk out of a lamp post simply by brushing against it. And the Cobra was supposed to be a threat? If I was Kirby I'd be seething too. Back and forth: separating the Lee and Kirby elementsIt is clear from Kirby's solo work (and from Tales of Asgard, see previous entry) that Kirby and Lee have different visions. But Kirby draws these stories after a meeting with Lee, and Lee has the final say. If Lee says "Thor meets the Avengers" then Thor has to meet the Avengers. No matter how it might conflict with what Kirby wants to do. Then Stan dialogs the finished result, pulling it back in line with his experience of what sells books. Lee knows that the audience is still primarily children. So in this thread I am trying to separate three elements: - Lee's plot idea (e.g. meet Avengers, ask Odin for permission to marry)
- Kirby's art (Avengers barely get a few frames, Thor battles Heimdall and loses)
- Lees' dialog (Thor is lovesick, Odin depowers him)
The more I see of Kirby's work the easier I think it is to see where Kirby is pulling. Before Lee pulls him back. Readers of course can disagree. Thor tries to enter AsgardI am not convinced by this "halving of Thor's power" dialog. This is used as an excuse for Thor to be unable to get past Heimdall and enter Asgard. This is classic Stan Lee: he wants easy to understand stories. So his hero is always the strongest guy in the room. We see this again and again in the FF, where Mr Fantastic is portrayed as a natural leader, and Sue is shown as much weaker, whereas the art shows them as equals. But Kirby has fought in actual battles, and knows that a battle between equals, where the hero sometimes loses, is more exciting than a foregone conclusion. Sure, Heimdall is not Thor's equal overall. But Heimdall is empowered by Odin to defend the bridge: that is his specialism and that is what he can do. Similarly, I am not convinced by the weak, pouting Thor who is upset that daddy won't let him go on a date. That is so NOT Thor. However, it is clear from the art that Thor has some disagreements with Odin. Thor wants to go to Asgard to settle these differences, but Odin wants him on Earth. This conflict arises naturally from the big plot: Odin placed him there and the plan is necessary as a way to survive or at least mitigate Ragnarok. Thor/Blake is caught between the two worlds, so it is only natural he would want to visit Asgard now. But Odin says no. Time travelWhat is really going on with the time travel part of the story? Obviously if we are building to a future event (Raganrok) then travelling to a time past that event is a good idea. And since the other gods are hiding in Asgard, Thor maybe figure he will have to create his own army on Earth. So a post-Ragnarok super-advanced robot is the obvious choice. So when the future robots attack, it makes sense to go back to the future with them, both to fix the probe at its source and out of curiosity. I can't speculate more without seeing how the art in this two part story develops. So... to be continued!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 18, 2016 2:41:01 GMT -5
Tales of Asgard
(Journey into Mystery 97 through Thor 145)
I will be fairly brief with this review, because this thread is about separating the art from the dialog. With Tales of Asgard (ToA) art and dialog are almost the same: most comic historians agree that ToA is almost pure Kirby. Why do they think that? You only have to read the "with Kirby" and "without Kirby" stories in Thor, and elsewhere, to see what Kirby brings to a title. ToA is very clearly on the extreme Kirby end of the spectrum. So there isn't much to analyse here: just enjoy it!
I think ToA is immensely important for interpreting the main Thor stories. Where there is any question I think ToA should be our guide. ToA gives us a strong main story (about the road to Ragnarok), and strong, clear characterisation. Indeed, it literally defines the characters. The strong, unforgettable elements of Thor always agree with ToA. But the weak forgettable elements of Thor are where it contradicts ToA.
I think that JiM 101 (where Kirby comes back to rescue the main story after some non-Kirby issues) is a good example of Kirby versus non-Kirby. Without ToA we would just have to say JiM is a weak story. But with ToA as our guide we can see where JiM 101 is supposed to go. JM 101 is, indeed, "Thor 101", a beginner's guide to the nature of the Lee-Kirby team, showing both its strengths and weaknesses.
It's all about Ragnarok
The underlying story of ToA, and hence of Thor itself, is set out in the first story (in JiM 97). It's all about Ragnarok. Odin casts Surtur down into the Earth's core, and Surtur is constantly fighting to come to the surface. Finally he will succeed, and cause the end of the gods. This can be seen as a metaphor for the forces of nature: the ancient Norse world was a tough place to live, so they had to constantly fight with nature. And they knew that eventually nature would win and their civilisation would die. It is works as a metaphor for modern science: we inherit beliefs about gods, but gradually the ordinary rocks beneath are creating a giant (science) that is destroying the gods.*
So it's Earth versus heaven. And heaven cannot survive. But the gods evolved over thousands of years, and kept society together. We still need unity. Can we survive without creating new gods?
ToA and Donald Blake
This tension between gods and science is embodied in Thor and Blake. Norse gods are sacrificial, pessimistic, and hierarchical. But science is beneficial, optimistic and egalitarian. We see this tension throughout the series. Blake is torn between heaven and Earth. While I don't think a love affair with Jane Foster makes sense, friendship with Jane Foster certainly does. What man does not want adoration and comfort? But a god is supposed to rise above that, and do what is right, even when it is lonely and painful.
Key issues
The key ToA issues are the first (JiM 97, the overview), Thor 128 (foreseeing the final destruction at Ragnarok, and its aftermath), and Thor 145, the final ToA.
In my opinion Thor 145's ToA is important because f how easily it segues into the Inhumans origin that follows. And the Inhumans origin is important because it combines and links all the different threads of Kirby's fifty year multi-title story. One day I will do a Kirby Inhumans review thread and discuss these connections in more detail.
* Footnote: of heaven and earth
This battle between the rock monster and the gods is literally true. The battle between science and tradition reached its climax in the 1830s and the debate over the age of the Earth. This hinged on Charles with Lyall's observation of rock strata beneath our feet. it's all about the rocks versus the gods. The rocks can only make sense in terms of billions of years of erosion, but the traditional Christian view is that the Earth is 6000 years old. (This view is based on a serious misreading of Genesis in my opinion, but that's another story) . Most other religions (Hinduism being the notable exception) also tend to teach a young Earth. The age of the Earth is the key to the battle between heaven and Earth, and evolution was just a later footnote, reliant on the long gradual change proven by Lyall.
Flaming lava and radiation - two other recurring themes in Thor - are also essential to destroying the gods. The final nail in the coffin of young earth science was the temperature of the rocks. Young earthers argued that Lyall had to be mistaken, and the Earth had to be young, because it was still warm and would have cooled down if it was older. But the discovery of radiation showed that most of the Earth's heat is generated by radioactive decay deep underground. So yes, the Earth, and also the sun and the whole universe, are far older than we thought.
I love how Thor deals with such enormous issues. This is why I have such a physical reaction against lame characters like Cobra and Mr Hyde. Whoever created Cobra and Hyde, and then forced them onto Kirby's Thor, has absolutely no understanding of what Thor is about. In my opinion.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 17, 2016 5:11:35 GMT -5
Overview of Thor up to this point
Journey Into Mystery (JiM) 97 is generally remembered as the start of the "good" Thor issues. But when we focus on the art (and ignore the non-Kirby issues) I think the story was consistent and powerful from the start. We move very quickly toward Ragnarok. Rather than the surface appearance, interminable stories in search of a purpose, Kirby had just four issues (split into eight) where he quickly got us up to speed ready for Ragnarok:
Four issues of intro ( = two full length issues)
JiM 83: origin
JiM 84: global turmoil
JiM 85: Loki
JiM 86: Thor is fully powered up
Four issues of preparation for battle ( = two)
JiM 87: What is his mission?
JiM 88: it's about Loki and the hammer
JiM 89: no more humans: this is a god's work
JiM 93: demi-god versus demi-god
And now the first rumblings of Ragnarok!
JiM 97: Surtur and the gods of Earth.
I pity the poor readers who had to wait a month to find out what happens next. Watch this space!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 17, 2016 3:11:07 GMT -5
Journey into mystery 97: it all starts here!Plot: finally! The demon plague begins, we get rid of Jane Foster, and most important, Tales of Asgard begins: and thus, so does cosmic, epic Marvel! To celebrate this milestone I'm actually uploading a graphic: not one but two pages! Because I think it illustrates the theme of this thread: how Jack Kirby is telling a different story from Stan Lee. And how (I think) it's fairly easy to separate the two stories:  The key is the top right hand corner: Loki refers to previously bringing the lava man to the surface, then forgetting about him. We never saw this in the comic. Just before that he is frustrated that he has no way to attack Thor. Yet the coming of the lava man was all over Earth's newspapers for three pages. Having such a major event happen off screen is bad enough, then having Loki immediately forget? Something is wrong here. But the art tells a different story. Odin is not coming to discuss Thor's love life, he is coming to warn Thor of the lava man. (Think the Watcher warning the FF of Galactus, or later warning them of the surfer, or the cosmic Doom appearing as a warning in the thunder: this is a common Kirby theme.) The big war is beginning. Note how the lava man appears gigantic in his first appearance (where we see just his feet) and at the end he grows to the size of a gigantic boulder to crush Thor. This is big, but the dialog does not acknowledge that. Sky versus earth: stone men, lava men and SurturKirby is doing something epic here: throughout mythology we have the gods of the sky and the gods of under the Earth. Kirby has only shown us two non-human enemy races, and they are both rock men. This is rock (Earth, below) versus gods (sky, above: with storms, rainbows, flying, bird's wings on the helmet, etc). Here we have a rock-fire demon arising from the depths of hell: the earth itself is finally beginning to convulse in preparation for Ragnarok. Surtur and RagnarokThe very first "tales of Asgard" is in this issue, and reinforces the point. This issue is about Surtur, the flaming demon who waits underground for the end of the world. Yet by pushing the lava man story aside to make space for a silly "will they won't they" love story, the epic importance of this story is lost. The picture of Loki foreseeing Ragnarok, becomes just Loki noticing some random fire. The whole story is destroyed by the dialog IMO. The love story is just wrongThe love story is not only silly, does not just take space away from the building story, but it goes totally against the nature of this epic. Gods do not worry about marrying mortals; they take what they want and leave. Even if they wanted to it would be unethical to marry a human: he would have to put the planet at risk to save her, and it is absurd to think she could ever relate to him as an equal: Thor would be taking advantage of a desperate groupie. Plus, Thor was already married to Sif, something anybody who was aware of the legends (enough to know about Baldar, the rainbow bridge, etc) would know. The art makes more sense if this is Thor choosing his destiny: Blake leaves Jane behind, just as Shakespeare's Henry VI leaves Falstaff behind. The characters' feelings are unfortunately obscured by Don Heck's inking: every face looks dramatically different from previous inkers, so it's hard to say if this reflects Kirby's pencils. (I can't help but think "Happy Hogan" whenever I see this Blake). But most likely, Blake looks happy because he (Blake) has found Jane a better job. Maybe we should give Lee credit for making Jane a stronger character - the dialog has her initiating the change - but is she strong? Her life revolves around men. At least Kirby's art is consistent with the epics, where mortals' only role is to provide contrast with the gods. The whole Blake-Foster romance has always felt out of place to me.
Grasping the hammerFinally, see the frame where Thor grasps his hammer for strength. The dialog makes him weak: we are supposed to believe that he feels weak because he cannot have a woman who is so shallow that, despite secretly loving Blake, she immediately switched when Thor came along. That story would be fine in Kirby's romance comics, which deal with mortal weakness. But this is a story of gods! Thor is not weak!! Thor is grasping his hammer like that because he knows that the end is coming. He finally understands why he was chosen, and how he and all the gods must ultimately die in order to save Midgard, and why the hammer is the key to the memory of the gods surviving Ragnarok. By shoe-horning in an unnecessary and foolish love story the timeless epic is diminished and ignored. In my opinion.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 2:23:34 GMT -5
if they had had complete freedom, the Kirby+Lee collaboration might never have happened. I agree. We have to work in the real world. In the real world, Kirby on his own was too "out there" and could not sell for more than a year or so. But Lee (and Simon and others) sugared the pill and enabled Kirby to create multi year epics. I think we can still uncover what Kirby was trying to do, more or less, so we have the best of both worlds. Just call me Dr Pangloss. |
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:59:45 GMT -5
Speaking of Tales of Asgard, I was just reading an interview with Neal Adams and I thought this bit was an interesting perspective on the the Kirby/Lee question: BTW, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't read that as a put-down of Stan Lee: on the contrary, I think it confirms my own feeling that Kirby's potential might never have been unleashed but for his collaboration with Stan. Agreed on both points! The history of comics seems to be endless frustration - of creative people being pushed down, or great ideas that just can't find the market, of brief fires soon extinguished in a sea of mediocrity. I'm thinking of those short but brilliant runs we see everywhere but they never continue for long. I think that Stan Lee was the world's greatest editor because he not only recognised that fire but used it to set the whole comics world alight. When I finish this race through Thor I want to go back to Sky Masters, and try to see what that was all about. |
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:52:29 GMT -5
More non-Kirby issues
Once again I'll skip the non-Kirby issues as they just rehash old themes:
Journey Into Mystery 94: Loki again
Journey Into Mystery 95: Duplicates again
Journey Into Mystery 96: Evil Merlin. These covers are Kirby, so MAYBE there is some influence here, some underlying story, but if so it's buried so far beneath other people's art and dialog that I can't uncover it. Moving on.
But what is this? Next issue we have Kirby PLUS the start of Tales of Asgard. Most commentators agree that Kirby's epic begins to explode right here, and sends shockwaves across every Marvel title. A "super special issue" indeed!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:42:50 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 93: now it's gods all the way!Plot: Russian scientist gets super powers, faces Thor. We're not actually told that Loki is behind this, but it has his fingerprints all over it. And since this thread is about the art, not the dialog, I feel safe in going there. The Russian scientist has technology far above anything humans have (his assistants are robots!) and then gets abilities that are far beyond science: total immunity to radiation, and ability to harness it in creative ways. That's Thor territory: recall Thor's immunity to the cobalt bomb, Thor's use of atomic particles if the dialog is to be trusted at all, etc. And of course RM is immune to Thor's hammer. That's surely proof? And don't you think the RM's face, before his change, looks god-like? Hmmm. The radioactive man is basically Russia's Thor. Both are ordinary humans given divine powers. Both are squarely on the side of their government, as they'd have to be if dealing with global issues. They have to operate at the group level, not the individual level (see my previous review "no more humans"). We are firmly into the battles of the gods here. Though technically, Don Blake and RM are (as far as we know) demigods: half man, half god. Kirby won't focus on full gods until the New Gods. (Though "Tales of Asgard" will tease us with tales of full gods from the past). And Kirby wont go "post god" until Captain Victory, a title that is (in my view) about thinking, not fighting. Oh, and note that in this issue Blake treats Jane Foster as unimportant ("no more humans"). And at the final "Don and jane" shot we finally see him smile in a relaxed way. He now seems at ease. He no longer sends her mixed signals: their relationship is purely professional. I expect he has plans in place to reduce the risk of being held back through Jane being a hostage. Maybe a cupboard full of fake Thor mannequins? Time will tell.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 16, 2016 0:15:44 GMT -5
The non-Kirby issues
We now have a few issues with no Kirby. The stories have little to redeem them, with or without the dialog, so I won't waste much time on these.
Journey Into Mystery 90: the "Carbon Copy Man" combines the aliens and duplicates themes that I mentioned in earlier reviews.
Journey Into Mystery 91: "Sandu, Master of the Supernatural" repeats the "Loki is behind all this" theme. And repeats copies Kirby's dramatic "giant Odin face" image, but this time it's just cheesy and devalued. I wonder if the "Sandu", the villain secretly being controlled by the REAL bad guy, is influenced by Kirby's story "Sando and Omar" from Captain America 1 back in 1941? That story may have been on Kirby's mind, as he updated it in 1965. Which raises the question, did these issues have any Kirby influence at plotting stage? He still did the covers, so was not completely detached.
Journey Into Mystery 92: "Loki Stole Thor's magic hammer" this develops the theme established in JiM 88: Loki knows about the hammer and wants it. Was Kirby involved at the initial discussion stage? Who knows. But the rest of it is forgettable. It's always interesting to see Sinnott pencils though. He is excellent at cleaning up other pencillers, but he doesn't quite get the layouts or faces right on his own, in my view. A perfect example of how inkers and pencillers have different skill sets.
BTW, I'm never comfortable with the word "magic" in Thor. I accept that its a convenient shorthand, but if religion or mythology are any good they should be something different. The word "magic" suggests "no need to try to understand". But with good stories (and real religion and real mythology) understand where it comes from is where the pleasure lies. Because the attempt to understand always unlocks bigger, more interesting stories. Or at least, that is true whenever Kirby is involved. I don't see that with other writers. If it's not Kirby then I agree with the mainstream view, that it's best to just say "it's just magic" and not think about those details.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2016 23:53:08 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery 89: Thug Thatcher ("No More Humans")
Plot: Thor has finally had enough with the petty humans. After this it's all gods, god-like mortals, or nothing.
Having established that Thor is about cosmic level threats, we have to say goodbye to the frustrating petty crook stories, and this story is about why. From beginning to end, Thor is held back by the smallness of the people around him. I'm putting it crudely, but it's true:
1. He starts by having to waste time with hiding his secret identity
2. Then he is unable to simply dispatch a petty crook for the same reason (can't reveal his identity)
3. Then he has the ethical problem of mortals falling in love with him. Obviously they will, but he could never marry a mortal because that means putting that person first, and thus risking the whole planet. Gods, by their nature, deal with groups, not individuals. A god will often require a human to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. You can't order your wife to do that! So I don't think this "I love Jane" dialog makes any sense. By avoiding the dialog we can ignore that subplot. Now obviously Thor will care for her, as she is a reminder of the people he is there to protect, so there will be a love like that ("like Pets" as General Zod so memorably put it). But Thor fretting over hiding his love for Jane? Everyone can see that is a go-nowhere trick that makes no sense.
4. Note the ironic contrast of the cover. It shows Thor being godly, then inside we see him wasting his time on stuff that should not distract him for more than a second, yet because of his links to humans it does. The final frame shows him flying away from humans. No doubt they will still be an inconvenience in the future, but in this thread I'm trying to make sense of the art, and I can only do that by seeing this issue as a farewell to pettiness.
5. Oh, and note that the Thug Thatcher problem resolves itself at the ebd without Thor's intervention,. Thor should not be wasting his time on this level, he has bigger problems to solve.
BTW, why does Thor even keep his identity secret? The obvious reason is that he is vulnerable while as Blake. So why does he stay as Blake? My theory, and I'm sticking with it, is that Odin has put the power in the hammer rather than the person so that somehow the power can survive past Ragnarok. This will work fine if Blake keeps a low profile. This should be easy: he is a natural loner. His very first appearance shows him as the kind of person who takes solo holidays on the other side of the world and then wanders off. And none of his face art portrays the slightest interest in other people, except an ethical desire to help others.
So I'm calling the Thug Thatcher issue "no more humans"
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2016 0:02:39 GMT -5
Journey into mystery 88: the bigger story revealed
Plot: Loki discovers the significance of Thor's hammer.
Six issues in, we have enough clues to see the backbone of the story (of which each issue of JiM is just a chapter). It's Thor versus Loki. But we still only have glimpses of the reason behind the battle. We know that for some reason Loki has been allowed to escape after many centuries. I think it's Odin's long term plan to survive Ragnarok*. As the wild card, the one god who won't fight alongside the others, the creative, lateral thinking one, the one with the self preservation instinct, Loki is the only hope for the gods' genes.
Loki is behind every issue:
Loki has now returned twice in four issues, and when he isn't there he may be behind the scenes. Flicking ahead, this will soon be made explicit. In this issue we see that he was watching Thor throughout the previous issue. Presumably he arranged the communist plot in order to test Thor's power. So while the first four issues covered Thor discovering his powers, these issue show Loki discovering Thor's power:
JiM 85: Loki tries random stuff to see how Thor will react.
JiM 86: Loki will have sen the full extent of his power.
JiM 87: Loki arranges further tests, looking for a weakness.
JiM 88: Loki learns what he needs: it's in the hammer.
I speculate that Odin focused the power in the hammer so that, when the gods are all killed, some aspect of them can return through artefacts like this. Just guessing. But everything in Norse mythology is about the inevitable destruction at Ragnarok, so it makes sense.
Other repeated themes:
We're starting to see many other subplots develop, issue by issue: Thor's growing realisation, his relationship with America, Odin's thinking, Don and Jane, etc. To keep this short, I'll just discuss one: the nature of the gods. When Loki first appeared his first act was to turn people into negative versions of themselves, like photographic negatives. This was so wild, so crazy, that I seriously began to doubt the sanity of the story (see my notes to JiM 85). But the fast pace of other events persuaded me that this was no accident. Sure enough, this time Loki does something very similar: he turns people into blank outlines. How does he do that? What does it tell us? And another thing: notice how Thor so quickly finds inferior duplicates of himself? Flicking ahead, this is another repeated theme. What does it mean?
If we just go by the dialog then the reason for both phenomena is that the dialog writer lacks ideas: throw crazy stuff at the stories, and having made Thor too strong the only serious threat is another Thor. But remember that I distrust the dialog and I'm focusing on the art. I have always found that Kirby's art tells its own story, and that story always makes sense. I don't think Kirby planned it consciously, but he has enough experience to intuitively make wise choices. I think that this is one of those cases: all this crazy stuff becomes simple when we remember that this is about alternate dimensions.
The gods as higher dimensional beings
We know that Thor can throw Loki to Asgard, even though we cannot see Asgard either in the clouds or nearby space. We know that Thor can communicate with Odin simply by thinking. We know that Thor (with Odin's help) can travel through time. We know that Thor can stand next to an exploding nuclear bomb without serious harm. All of this argues for the gods being higher dimensional beings. This agrees with the standard view of gods, e.g. in the Bible: they are "above" us, yet not in a way that we see, and (crucially) they can see everything at once. As Edwinn Abbott Abbott (so good they named him twice) observed, all of this can be explained if these beings are in the next dimension above us.
Imagine if we, three dimensional beings, interacted with a two dimensional world. Like, looking at pages in a book. We could easily jump in and out of that world, step forwards or back in time (move to a later page without reading every word in between), and see everything that is going on. This explains Thor's bomb survival: the worst a 2D bomb could do would be mess up one zero thickness plane of your body, leaving everything above or below it intact. Thor would think he could probab survive that fine. And making duplicates would be easy: a 3D body is like an infinite stack of 2D bodies. It also allows Thor to draw electricity and water from apparently nowhere. It all fits. I think Loki's first trick, the negative people, is the clue: it's like us finding a 2D picture of a person and flipping it over or filling it in. Later creating blank people is a reminder that this was no accident.
Kirby as master planner
This shows how Kirby can be right even without realising it. To a 3D person, creating 2D art, negatives or blank shapes are trivially easy to imagine. And Kirby is acting like a god: he has all power over these drawn figures. So anything godlike that Kirby imagines (blank people, time travel, surviving a bomb, etc) makes sense because that is exactly the power that Kirby (the god) has over his creations. All Kirby has to do is act naturally and as long as he cares about the story, it will fit together over the long term, even though he may not consciously know how. This is not true for the official writer, because the writer is thinking about other 3D people, not 2D people. And it is not true for other artists who see it as "just a job" and just slavishly copy the writer without adding their own ideas.
Another example of how Kirby can be right without consciously thinking about it is in his art that looks solid and his science that machinery that connects to the real world: Kirby spent his life fighting and reading, the stuff had to work ion his mind, so it worked on the page. And the way that Kirby's stories move forwards (superheroes in 1940s, gangs, westerns and monsters in the 1950s, science and existential crisis in the 1960s): they reflect the culture that was developing in the real world. I do not want to pretend that Kirby planned any of this in conscious detail, but the facts that he cared so much about stories, and spent so long on the art, he was stubborn enough to contradict a writer of he wanted to, he was such a close observer of reality, he was such a thinker, these are what creates the unique and consistent Kirby effect, regardless of who is writing. In my opinion.
I could write ten times more about this issue, but that's enough writing for one day.
Footnote
* Odin made it so Loki could be released when people shed a tear for him. So Odin foresaw a day when either
(1) the old gods are dead and future beings shed a tear for them: they even miss Loki. Loki, safe inside the tree, could presumably survive. (Especially if Loki could make some connection with Yggdrasil, which spanned more than one world: being Loki, and having plenty of time, that was a given).
(2) the gods would be too distracted by other events: this is what happened, allowing Loki to trick a fake tear. What events were they distracted by? Well Earth was changing rapidly: accelerating technology, the threat of alien invasions, nuclear war, etc. So that is the obvious answer.
Both scenarios suggest Ragarok. Norse mythology is all about fighting to delay this inevitable end that is always on the gods' minds.
tl;dr
Thor is one continuous story. Every issue of JiM is an essential chapter that builds the bigger narrative.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 14, 2016 11:29:26 GMT -5
Journey into mystery 87: quo vadis?
Plot:
After the four issue introduction, where we learn that Thor can do pretty much anything, he is faced with his greatest challenge: what to do?
Lacking any other ideas, he becomes friends with the government. But America versus Communism is a battle of ideologies, not muscle: Thor's power is of no long term use here. He's just playing wack-a-mole.
I expect this to be the only story like this. it serves its purpose.
Art v dialog:
The dialog suggests that Thor is just having random adventures and wishing Jane Foster would notice him. But the art does not imply that. To me, Blake's face says it all. This is not the face of a man in love. It's the face of a man in a very serious situation wondering what to do.
Part of a continuous story:
SPOILER ALERT: from what I recall of skimming through the later series, Thor is here to prepare for Ragnarok. All the stories seem to build toward that. And after that Kirby seems to lose interest in the title (or rather, he is preparing the next stage, the New Gods). Seen in that context, JiM 83-86 introduces the character, JiM 87 says "what is my purpose?" and JiM 88 should begin to answer that.
Every issue matters. Every issue moves the big story forwards.
Jane
:
Regarding Jane, she seems to be here not for romance (which makes no sense: Blake has bigger issues on his mind) but to provide a contrast with the everyday. One thing was very clear from my reading of the FF: Kirby would constantly switch between the cosmic and the mundane, to heighten the contrast. I think that is Jane's role here. To me the art in the last frame each issue is not saying "I secretly love her" but "what does this all mean?"
Changes to the art?
Incidentally, a couple of issues ago the last Don-and-Jane frame was very large with thick lines, as if it had been photocopied and enlarged, to cover over an original frame that is now lost. If so, I wonder what?
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