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Post by gothos on Apr 11, 2015 14:02:23 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the contradiction, perhaps because the modest respectability that the medium in general and the superhero genre in particular have gained both stem from demonstrating that sometimes comics can be at least as mature as other pop fiction-- which is not always to say, dressing up the toys in "spikes and razor blades."
I prefer to see it not as a need for approval, but as an attempt to demonstrate a commonality regarding the ways all people are entertained. In the 1960s, no fan could have explained that it was cool to see Batman fight the Joker and the Penguin, because there was an innate prejudice against fantasy-entertainment. But if you can say, Hey, Batman entertains on the same level that Dirty Harry does-- at least sometimes-- then you've demolished your opponent's argument.
And that's all I have time for today...
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 11, 2015 16:40:04 GMT -5
I would just like to interject that in the 60s and early 70s, comic books and undergrounds were for the most part separate and distinct audiences. Those caught reading undergrounds were not thought of as "man-children" as Gothos claims, but rather and justly as hippies. Drug-taking, free-loving and anarchistic hippies. Those adults caught reading the Sunday color comics section from the newspaper were thought as normal. Those caught reading Little Annie Fannie from Playboy were thought of as something else all together.
The point being all newstand comics in monthly pamphlette form in the US back then were thought as kid's fare. But as news began to spread that older comics were beginning to sell for big bucks, this blanketting attitude slowly began to dispel. Leave it to the power of money and greed to start to change people's attitudes
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Post by Pól Rua on Apr 11, 2015 19:05:42 GMT -5
Sure, it's an evolution, but it's the most knuckleheaded version. It's 'escalation as development'. If this guy had the Joker kill five people, I'll have him kill ten people, and the next bloke has him kill twenty people, five nuns and a puppy dog. It's dimwitted storytelling. Rather than telling BETTER stories, or hell, even GOOD stories, they're just upping the bodycount... like that's some sort of barometer of quality. It's the sort of logic that says 'Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan' is a better film than 'Psycho' because only two people get killed in 'Psycho'. If DC is emulating Thomas Harris, it's doing so in an adolescent manner. It's all about execution, not content. It reads like some surly 14 year old metalhead saw 'Silence of the Lambs' and said, "Hey, let's do a Joker story, but we'll make him all fucked up an' shit. He can, like, get some dude to tear his own face off an' shit and then staple it back on because he's so hardcore, and then he fucks up Batman an' shit and Batman's all like, 'Oh, man, the Joker is so fuckin' hardcore, I don't know if even I can stop him an' shit.'" Dan DiDio's attitude that everything needs to be about failure and trauma is an adolescent conceit. When you become a teenager, because you have elements of childhood and adulthood in your make-up, you want to emphasize the latter. You want to make yourself look grown-up. But because you're still also partly a child, and you have no experience of actually being a adult, you have no idea how to do that. So what you do is take what you DO know - the things of childhood - and turn them upside down. Because adulthood is the opposite of childhood, right? So you take the things you loved as a kid and say, "That shit is childish. I hate that shit." You reject things like fun, laughter, optimism, altruism and fantasy, and embrace bleakness, misery, pessimism, cynicism, and nihilsm, which you consider to be 'realistic'. "Man, that shit is bullshit. In the real world, Batman would be all fucked up and psycho and shit. Not that happy, smiling bullshit. This is the real world, man. Nobody just walks away from that shit." That's why teenagers drift away from Superman, towards Batman. Because Superman is bullshit. He's too perfect. But Batman (Billionaire, Scientist, Master Detective, Martial Artist in a Halloween Costume fighting an evil supergenius clown) is 'realistic'. And they'll say that world 'realistic' like (a) it's the most important thing in the world, and (b) like they actually mean it. And hell, even as a teenager, if you still like fun and fantasy, your increased social awareness means that you're insecure that someone might notice and make fun of you for it. "What, you're still into that kiddie shit? What are you, eight?" That's why almost all the promotional material during the 80's was about how 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore'. Like that was something to be proud of. "We've taken all the kids' toys away from them and that's awesome." An adult, on the other hand, doesn't need to reaffirm his or her adulthood. They do that every day by going to work and budgeting and paying bills and listening to their teenage kids tell them, "Hey, you don't understand, man. It's all misery and futility." So an adult can sit with their children and everyone can enjoy watching a cartoon rabbit get the better of a bald hunter with a shotgun and a speech impediment, while their teenage kid sits grumpily in the background and says, "That's bullshit. In the real world, a hunter would straight up kill a rabbit." Hopefully, they'll grow out of it. The sad thing is, some of them never do. The even sadder thing is, some of them become heads of one of the biggest comics publishers on the planet.
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Post by Pól Rua on Apr 11, 2015 19:44:08 GMT -5
It's easy. DC has all the best toys. Seriously. I LOVE the DC Universe. From Adam Strange to Enemy Ace, from Superman to Kamandi, from Batman to Arak, Son of Thunder, you could not hope for a more rich, fertile ground to draw amazing, mindblowing adventure stories from. All DC's creative team has to do is create those stories in such a way that doesn't set out to deliberately exclude kids. This is the problem I mentioned above. That of definition. Some people think all-ages is kittens and rainbows. I think that all-ages means a story that doesn't EXCLUDE kids. You're saying the problem is that the special 'kids' only batman super-fun comics' doesn't sell to kids, I'm saying the problem is that 'Batman' isn't suitable to kids. If 'Batman' was suitable for kids to read, they'd buy it. Because It's Batman. Kids don't want to read about the FAKE Batman. They don't want the KID'S TABLE Batman. They don't want to be tossed the scraps that are left after all the teenagers are finished with them. They Want Batman, and DC are denying them that because they want to appease a bunch of selfish teenagers. Don't do a kiddified Batman consciously aimed at kids. Kids HATE that. Do the regular Batman comic, but in such a way that it doesn't deliberately exclude kids. I'm saying superhero comics should have mature themes. I'm saying that superhero comics should be dark at times. I'm saying that superhero comics should explore complex issues. I'm saying that should push boundaries. I'm just against them BUILDING boundaries. Let's take a f'rinstance. In a comparatively recent issue of 'Teen Titans', they reintroduced the old SuperFriends sidekicks of Wendy, Marvin and Wonderdog. If you're not an old fuck like me, just imagine they're Shaggy, Velma and Scooby from Scooby doo. They might as well have been. www.cartoonscrapbook.com/01pics-L/super-friends-73_L13.jpg In the story, Marvin finds and adopts a dog, puts a cape on him, and takes him back to Titans HQ. The twist is that the dog is a genetically engineered monster designed to infiltrate the HQ and kill everyone. The scene is Wendy goes to check on 'em and there it is, big single panel page of giant hideous monster dog and Marvin's horribly dismembered corpse. thiswastv.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/screenshot_2012-05-28-14-13-061.jpgThis is exactly what I'm talking about. This is the "Kids Get Out" page. There was any number of ways to have shown this image, but they did so in as horrific and graphic way possible. It has two effects. One, it makes totally obvious that this comic is NOT FOR KIDS, and Two, it appeases that teenage mindset that thinks that kid sidekicks and dogs in capes are stupid, and in the real world, they would turn into monsters and kill everyone... wait, what? It's drama as 'Cannibal Corpse' album cover. Cheap, exclusionary shock tactics in lieu of storytelling. Now, let's say you had the same scene, but instead of showing a dismembered corpse, you did a reaction shot of Wendy opening the door and looking shocked. The dog is mostly in shadow, and maybe there's a pool of something that might be blood. Later on, someone says that by the time they'd got to Marvin, he had already died of his wounds. Poor kid. I'd call that 'all ages'. Not because it's rainbows and puppies, but because it doesn't have that GET OUT scene. You still get all the cheap nihilism for the teenage crowd, but it's not saying to younger readers "YOU CAN'T READ THIS". I'm not saying that everything needs to be sanitized to the point of ridiculousness. What I'm saying to creators is be clever. Be interesting. And don't be selfish.
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Post by Pól Rua on Apr 11, 2015 21:09:37 GMT -5
But if they honestly don't like the all-ages approach, why would these fans support it? I don't think that they're quite as unitary as you hypothesize, to judge from the complaints against ultraviolence on the CBR boards. But apparently the people who like "adult-erated" versions of their adventure-characters are willing to support this type of entertainment, and the failure of most "all ages" projects, like DC's Dollar Comics, indicates that not enough people will pony up for the alternative. DC Fans aren't unitary. There are a LOT of fans of DC's characters and universe who feel that the company's product is actively geared to drive them away. That's my point. DC has all the good toys, but is only interested in marketing to those who share their extremely narrow viewpoint of what sort of comics they should be publishing; the so-called 'hardcore fanbase'. All they need to do is stop catering to this selfish minority at the exclusion of everyone else. And a big part of that is removing the stick up their butt that they have about how they somehow have to 'fix' their characters so they're 'darker' or more 'realistic'. They don't. People LOVE Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. They don't NEED fixing.
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 12, 2015 10:16:41 GMT -5
There are a LOT of fans of DC's characters and universe who feel that the company's product is actively geared to drive them away. Yup. Like me. I haven't bought a DC Comic since the wrap-up of Ross' Justice. Cei-U! Didio hasn't just peed in the punchbowl, he's taken a big steaming dump in it!
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 12, 2015 12:39:42 GMT -5
There are a LOT of fans of DC's characters and universe who feel that the company's product is actively geared to drive them away. Yup. Like me. I haven't bought a DC Comic since the wrap-up of Ross' Justice. Cei-U! Didio hasn't just peed in the punchbowl, he's taken a big steaming dump in it! What disturbs me most about Didio is that he always seems to be laughing hysterically...at everything. It's almost as if he got a whiff of the Joker's laughing gas and it never quite wore off.
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Post by gothos on Apr 13, 2015 17:15:55 GMT -5
I would just like to interject that in the 60s and early 70s, comic books and undergrounds were for the most part separate and distinct audiences. Those caught reading undergrounds were not thought of as "man-children" as Gothos claims, but rather and justly as hippies. Drug-taking, free-loving and anarchistic hippies. Those adults caught reading the Sunday color comics section from the newspaper were thought as normal. Those caught reading Little Annie Fannie from Playboy were thought of as something else all together. The point being all newstand comics in monthly pamphlette form in the US back then were thought as kid's fare. But as news began to spread that older comics were beginning to sell for big bucks, this blanketting attitude slowly began to dispel. Leave it to the power of money and greed to start to change people's attitudes Sure, "hippies" would be the default critique, but doesn't that carry some of the same connotations of "man-children?" I'll admit that I don't have a handy example of someone from the 1960s putting down the undergrounds. But it seems likely that many adults whose only contact with comics was the newspaper comics would look down upon undergrounds as full of sleazy sex, violence, and drug references. Their critiques would be that the readers of undergrounds were trapped in adolescence, while I guess the older readers of mainstream comics would be considered to be trapped in childhood. A measured difference, perhaps.
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Post by gothos on Apr 13, 2015 17:40:13 GMT -5
Sure, it's an evolution, but it's the most knuckleheaded version. It's 'escalation as development'. If this guy had the Joker kill five people, I'll have him kill ten people, and the next bloke has him kill twenty people, five nuns and a puppy dog. It's dimwitted storytelling. Rather than telling BETTER stories, or hell, even GOOD stories, they're just upping the bodycount... like that's some sort of barometer of quality. It's the sort of logic that says 'Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan' is a better film than 'Psycho' because only two people get killed in 'Psycho'. If DC is emulating Thomas Harris, it's doing so in an adolescent manner. It's all about execution, not content. It reads like some surly 14 year old metalhead saw 'Silence of the Lambs' and said, "Hey, let's do a Joker story, but we'll make him all fucked up an' shit. He can, like, get some dude to tear his own face off an' shit and then staple it back on because he's so hardcore, and then he fucks up Batman an' shit and Batman's all like, 'Oh, man, the Joker is so fuckin' hardcore, I don't know if even I can stop him an' shit.'" Dan DiDio's attitude that everything needs to be about failure and trauma is an adolescent conceit. When you become a teenager, because you have elements of childhood and adulthood in your make-up, you want to emphasize the latter. You want to make yourself look grown-up. But because you're still also partly a child, and you have no experience of actually being a adult, you have no idea how to do that. So what you do is take what you DO know - the things of childhood - and turn them upside down. Because adulthood is the opposite of childhood, right? So you take the things you loved as a kid and say, "That shit is childish. I hate that shit." You reject things like fun, laughter, optimism, altruism and fantasy, and embrace bleakness, misery, pessimism, cynicism, and nihilsm, which you consider to be 'realistic'. "Man, that shit is bullshit. In the real world, Batman would be all fucked up and psycho and shit. Not that happy, smiling bullshit. This is the real world, man. Nobody just walks away from that shit." That's why teenagers drift away from Superman, towards Batman. Because Superman is bullshit. He's too perfect. But Batman (Billionaire, Scientist, Master Detective, Martial Artist in a Halloween Costume fighting an evil supergenius clown) is 'realistic'. And they'll say that world 'realistic' like (a) it's the most important thing in the world, and (b) like they actually mean it. And hell, even as a teenager, if you still like fun and fantasy, your increased social awareness means that you're insecure that someone might notice and make fun of you for it. "What, you're still into that kiddie shit? What are you, eight?" That's why almost all the promotional material during the 80's was about how 'Comics Aren't For Kids Anymore'. Like that was something to be proud of. "We've taken all the kids' toys away from them and that's awesome." An adult, on the other hand, doesn't need to reaffirm his or her adulthood. They do that every day by going to work and budgeting and paying bills and listening to their teenage kids tell them, "Hey, you don't understand, man. It's all misery and futility." So an adult can sit with their children and everyone can enjoy watching a cartoon rabbit get the better of a bald hunter with a shotgun and a speech impediment, while their teenage kid sits grumpily in the background and says, "That's bullshit. In the real world, a hunter would straight up kill a rabbit." Hopefully, they'll grow out of it. The sad thing is, some of them never do. The even sadder thing is, some of them become heads of one of the biggest comics publishers on the planet. I still don't think it's all about realism, spurious or otherwise. Kids themselves play one-upmanship games about what is or isn't fitting to read. I can remember being in some middle-school grade-- I'll say seventh-- and that when I made some remark about a MIGHTY MOUSE comic I'd read, I immediately got the "only little kids read that junk" reaction from a peer. You might assume that this proves your case, since I suppose I and my peer would have been about 12. But I descried the same reaction from adults about anything too cartoon-y. So I can't buy the idea that all adults can sincerely enjoy watching Bugs Bunny trounce Elmer Fudd. I think that in the past twenty-something years, it's become a little more acceptable for adults to enjoy such simple pleasures; otherwise, sites like "Bleeding Cool" would never be doing articles on favorite cartoons and comics. But a lot of adults are still impatient with simple pleasures, and won't watch Bugs Bunny except if they're enjoying their kids' pleasure in the cartoons. Again, this isn't just taste; it's a hierarchy based on what is perceived to be rigorous, demanding, and adult. Around the time of Superman's 50th anniversary, some of you on this board may remember that TIME MAGAZINE did a cover-piece announcing "He's 50!" Around the same time, a TV commercial for some other magazine-- I no longer remember which-- featured a spokesman who held up the TIME Superman-cover, repeated the words, "He's 50," and then said, "Who cares?" The rhetorical point was to make TIME look foolish and un-adult for devoting a major story to a kid's comic book-icon, and a lot of adults still respond to that sentiment, not just sulky teenagers. (Even if I didn't remember that the commercial was dated by Superman's 50th, you'd know if must've happened a really long time ago-- who advertises magazines on TV any more?) The demands that come from the age-hierarchy aren't rooted only in teens being insecure about the image they project. Other little kids dis each other about their "kiddie" tastes, and adults look askance at other adults for just about every breach of "adult decorum." You're giving me the impression that either you've never personally seen this kind of put-down from anyone but teenagers, or that you've seen it and have somehow considered it irrelevant. Unless you have a third alternative--?
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Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 13, 2015 17:51:11 GMT -5
I'll admit that I don't have a handy example of someone from the 1960s putting down the undergrounds. But it seems likely that many adults whose only contact with comics was the newspaper comics would look down upon undergrounds as full of sleazy sex, violence, and drug references. Their critiques would be that the readers of undergrounds were trapped in adolescence, while I guess the older readers of mainstream comics would be considered to be trapped in childhood. A measured difference, perhaps. While there would have been hard-liners broadly categorizing as you describe, the period is also noteworthy for a blurring of the lines and boundaries that described American popular culture. Robert Crumb provided the artwork for Big Brother and the Holding Company's "Cheap Thrills" album, who were then featured on Hollywood Palace, a mainstream variety program on ABC that competed with CBS' Ed Sullivan Show, where they were introduced by Don Adams of Get Smart fame. Their singer, Janis Joplin would go on to appear opposite 1920s ingénue Gloria Swanson on The Dick Cavett Show. It was a magical time where music, art, film, television, and comics seemed to intersect briefly and all were given a fair shake. Stan Lee lectured at colleges and appeared on What's My Line (as did Bill Gaines), and Harvey Kurtzman and Will Elder et al were appearing semi-regularly in Playboy, juxtaposed with work by Ian Fleming, Arthur C. Clarke, Saul Bellow , and Nabokov, among others.
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Post by gothos on Apr 13, 2015 17:55:06 GMT -5
But if they honestly don't like the all-ages approach, why would these fans support it? I don't think that they're quite as unitary as you hypothesize, to judge from the complaints against ultraviolence on the CBR boards. But apparently the people who like "adult-erated" versions of their adventure-characters are willing to support this type of entertainment, and the failure of most "all ages" projects, like DC's Dollar Comics, indicates that not enough people will pony up for the alternative. DC Fans aren't unitary. There are a LOT of fans of DC's characters and universe who feel that the company's product is actively geared to drive them away. That's my point. DC has all the good toys, but is only interested in marketing to those who share their extremely narrow viewpoint of what sort of comics they should be publishing; the so-called 'hardcore fanbase'. All they need to do is stop catering to this selfish minority at the exclusion of everyone else. And a big part of that is removing the stick up their butt that they have about how they somehow have to 'fix' their characters so they're 'darker' or more 'realistic'. They don't. People LOVE Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. They don't NEED fixing. A lot of people have a sentimental liking for the great DC characters, but those people won't support them. Recently THE BEAT did a piece talking about how many women on Facebook would "like" comics characters, as evidence of How Things Have Changed. Detractors pointed out that it costs nothing to say that you like something on Facebook, and such stats prove nothing about whether or not these people actually purchase comics. I don't even think the "hardcore fanbase" is unitary in the sense you've described it. I think that these are the direct descendants of the impulse buyers of the mainstream days; they get interested by Big Events in exactly the same way an earlier generation got interested in why the Flash had grown a super-sized skull, or how the Thing would fare in a fight with the Hulk. A lot of these "Big Events" are meretricious, but sometimes they work. I hated the concept of EMERALD DAWN and thought it was badly written. But the event drew people's attention back to Green Lantern and made him a major DC player again. I'd like it if, as you claim, the only way to success was through "good storytelling." But it ain't necessarily so.
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Post by gothos on Apr 13, 2015 18:06:13 GMT -5
I'll admit that I don't have a handy example of someone from the 1960s putting down the undergrounds. But it seems likely that many adults whose only contact with comics was the newspaper comics would look down upon undergrounds as full of sleazy sex, violence, and drug references. Their critiques would be that the readers of undergrounds were trapped in adolescence, while I guess the older readers of mainstream comics would be considered to be trapped in childhood. A measured difference, perhaps. While there would have been hard-liners broadly categorizing as you describe, the period is also noteworthy for a blurring of the lines and boundaries that described American popular culture. Robert Crumb provided the artwork for Big Brother and the Holding Company's "Cheap Thrills" album, who were then featured on Hollywood Palace, a mainstream variety program on ABC that competed with CBS' Ed Sullivan Show, where they were introduced by Don Adams of Get Smart fame. Their singer, Janis Joplin would go on to appear opposite 1920s ingénue Gloria Swanson on The Dick Cavett Show. It was a magical time where music, art, film, television, and comics seemed to intersect briefly and all were given a fair shake. Stan Lee lectured at colleges and appeared on What's My Line (as did Bill Gaines), and Harvey Kurtzman and Will Elder et al were appearing semi-regularly in Playboy, juxtaposed with work by Ian Fleming, Arthur C. Clarke, Saul Bellow , and Nabokov, among others. Crumb and Lee, as different as they were, certainly did seem to tap into the Weltanschauung of the time. Lee used to remark that the Marvel offices started getting visits from major film-makers like Alan Resnais and Federico Fellini. Someone-- Roy Thomas, maybe-- remarked that Resnais may have even thought about collaborating with Lee on something-or-other, though nothing came from their meeting. And of course in the same period you get Jules Feiffer reminiscing on the subject of comics books in 1965's THE GREAT COMIC BOOK HEROES-- something that would have been inconceivable in the 1950s. (I think one critic, Robert Warshow, penned an ambivalent essay on EC Comics in the 1950s.) But, to re-clarify my point, the kind of people who would use terms like "man-children" would not have been interested in these fine points.
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Post by gothos on Apr 13, 2015 18:07:50 GMT -5
An additional question:
Is the "power fantasy" associated with superheroes limited to that genre?
And do most readers really "grow out of" enjoying such fantasies?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 13, 2015 18:22:02 GMT -5
I'll admit that I don't have a handy example of someone from the 1960s putting down the undergrounds. But it seems likely that many adults whose only contact with comics was the newspaper comics would look down upon undergrounds as full of sleazy sex, violence, and drug references. Their critiques would be that the readers of undergrounds were trapped in adolescence, while I guess the older readers of mainstream comics would be considered to be trapped in childhood. A measured difference, perhaps. To try and put underground comics and mainstream newstand comics in the same boat back in the 60s and early 70s would result with a huge hole that would sink one's logic. Undergrounds would occasionally parody superheroes and other comicbook motifs but they mainly were about advancing radical left-wing ideology. Drug use and rampant sex was part of it. Ridiculing authority, politicians and police and the military in particular. Anti-war and anti racism, demonstrations and revolutions. Any parent having a choice of what their children should be reading between the 2 would prefer comic books in a heartbeat If you think the public thought of the underground reader as a mere man-child you couldn't be more wrong. It tied into the rock n'roll, student demonstation lifestyle. It scared middle America shitless because back then it seemed America was on the verge of a revolution 9and it was between the anti-war and civil rights movements). Undergrounds were part of that. They were far far away from spandex caped crusader stories in the public's mind
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Post by Phil Maurice on Apr 13, 2015 18:23:07 GMT -5
Crumb and Lee, as different as they were, certainly did seem to tap into the Weltanschauung of the time. Lee used to remark that the Marvel offices started getting visits from major film-makers like Alan Resnais and Federico Fellini. Someone-- Roy Thomas, maybe-- remarked that Resnais may have even thought about collaborating with Lee on something-or-other, though nothing came from their meeting. Wow. What a collaboration that would have been. Did not know that. And your points are well taken and thoroughly engrossing, I should add.
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