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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 3, 2015 21:10:00 GMT -5
What about wanting to use Superman to tell your story? Take Action Comics #810 for instance, it's a great little story about how on new years eve Superman stops in on every time zone to ring in the new year by answering a fan letter or two from that area. It's nothing earth shattering I suppose, but it's a well told tale with a good message about how we should face the new year. Could Joe Kelly and Dave Bullock told it with a flying muscle man of their own making, or even sans superhero at all? Sure, and I'm sure I'd enjoy it all the same but they chose to make it a superman story because along with showing us an interesting way to embrace the new year it also shows us an interesting facet of Superman. And there's no intrinsic difference about an entertaining comic and an entertaining comic with Superman in it; they both achieve the same purpose. And for as much success as Kelly's had with both DC and Marvel he's produced some pretty great comics for Image such as I Kill Giants, Four Eyes and Douglas Fredericks and the House of They and he's also one of the creators of the wildly successful cartoon Ben 10 so not just someone with out the talent or drive to succeed out side of writing Superman stories. Did they choose to tell a Superman tale or were they assigned the job? As far as just as many unlicensed comics being garbage, you're totally correct on that. They aren't consistently bestsellers though, which is the value of the license. You HAVE to tell a good story to actually make sales if you don't have a license, wither owned, leased, or through public domain, in order for it to sell. Now, are there people who work at DC who love Superman? Absolutely. Are there people who don't work at DC who would love to work on Superman? Absolutely. But I still maintain that a great storyteller can manage without the license if they don't have access to it, and I still suspect the aspiring professionals who feel robbed that they can't just make Superman and Mickey Mouse comics are actually more concerned with the built in audience those properties bring with them. Also, the only reason a license has value is because someone made that property great. Shax mentioned Sherlock Holmes. When we think Sherlock Holmes we think Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Especially in his native format of prose. Now that Holmes is in the public domain there are plenty of TV shows and movies featuring him. But not all that many novels. Why not? Mystery thrillers are a hot genre. I think it's because readers wouldn't accept it. They don't care so much about the character as they did Doyle's writing. I'll only read an Ian Flemming Bond book. I'm a huge Robert Ludlum fan, and have read all of his books. I once or twice accidentally bought a Covert One novel because his name was plastered across the top, and then when I realized it was authored by someone else I didn't even read the first chapter, just gave it to Goodwill brand new and unread. Because I assume any author who takes second billing on the cover of his own book isn't going to be that great an author. You mention music. Would you rather see the band whose music you love, or a cover band inspired by the band who plays the music you love? Joe Kelly enjoys Superman and fully chose the job...and so have many others. Have just as many simply been assigned it? Absolutely, but that distinction doesn't equate to either inherently negative or positive story telling qualities. Does having familiarity give you a certain cushion? Absolutely, but only in the short term as the many down turns in popularity of characters like Batman and Superman illustrate perfectly; these characters are not what I would call consistent best sellers as both have had serious swings in sales through the years and have in fact been in danger of cancellation multiple times. If you continually take for granted that these books will just sell themselves then they stagnate and fail and its only through dedicated, skilled and passionate writers and artists that those turns have been reversed. Is it still an asset, certainly but again why is that a negative quality? It's been a trusted tool in story telling forever, and one used to create many timeless stories...so why treat it like a bad thing? And again I say nothing is absolute. You don't HAVE to tell a good story in order to achieve high sales numbers with out a license; as there have been plenty of books that were run away successes despite being of poor quality due either to the names of the creators involved or simply tapping into a particular fad. And again, that isn't unique to comics as you are want to point out Justin Bieber is wildly popular despite being objectively simplistic and this is due more to the current fads than anything else. Also you'll note that I never said a great story teller couldn't manage without a license so I'm not sure why you have to "maintain" that point. However I don't see evidence that wanting that built in audience is a primary concern, or again why that asset is inherently negative. Also, I don't fully understand the point of your follow up, so someone originally made a character popular which of course goes with out saying, but why does that original greatness make future use a negative, especially in a serialized format as super hero comics? The Holmes argument though doesn't really illustrate that point though it does perhaps explain what the intent of your argument was. Sherlock Holmes seems like an obvious choice to make, he's wildly popular and has origins in a serialized format much like comic superheroes however the similarities largely end there, which provides the answer to your question as to why readers of Holmes seldom accept novels by others. Unlike comics, which have a history of multiple writers and artists traditional literature focuses on primary creators which is a very different tradition and creates a different mindset. Now, this was not always so; if one is familiar with the early adventures of Superman and Batman they'd know that the original creators were credited as creating the stories even after they ceased working on them due to fear of people leaving, but they learned that as long as the stories were entertaining the readers would remain and so shifting creative teams has become an accepted staple of the medium. Now this is only conjecture, but if instead of simply stopping Doyle had instead hired other people to write more Holmes stories at the time of Holmes creation what's to say that wouldn't be just as accepted today as changing creators are in comics? If something is done early enough, and repeated enough it becomes a tradition, and those are hard to break. Now, you may assume that any writer that would willingly take second billing behind another and work with characters not of their own making would be bad, and you may personally prefer not to read those kinds of books(after all, it's a free country) but that does not make your preferences or assumptions facts, even if those assumptions and preferences are often well founded. As for the cover band comment, I think their popularity speaks for itself, though they most likely will never surpass the originals their out put can still be extremely entertaining, especially if seeing the originals live is no longer an option. And the same is true of comics, sure you can re-read the originals but you lose that live component that way; the excitement of waiting for the next issue to come out and the fun of discussing it with a group of friends who are also just experiencing it for the first time with both which are, at least for me, just as fun as the books themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 23:43:08 GMT -5
Justin Beiber isn't relying on a license though. If Joe Kelly had been assigned to write Batman, or Aquaman instead, would he have done just as well? A good writer will write good. A bad one won't.
Now, lets pretend Superman was public domain. First order of business would be you'd never see him in a current DC comic again. So which publishers do publish public domain stuff? Pretty much just Zenescope and Dynamite. People act like it would be this magical situation where the world's greatest writers and artists would flock to Superman comics and every publisher would publish them. No, he'd be teaming up with Zorro in some stupid crossover from some other company. And a whole lot more amateur produced fanfic type homebrew webcomics. Professionals who rely on their trade to pay their bills likely wouldn't bother. So that's how it would end. Opening Superman to the public domain would effectively kill the character.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 3, 2015 23:54:36 GMT -5
Now, lets pretend Superman was public domain. First order of business would be you'd never see him in a current DC comic again. So which publishers do publish public domain stuff? Pretty much just Zenescope and Dynamite. People act like it would be this magical situation where the world's greatest writers and artists would flock to Superman comics and every publisher would publish them. No, he'd be teaming up with Zorro in some stupid crossover from some other company. And a whole lot more amateur produced fanfic type homebrew webcomics. Professionals who rely on their trade to pay their bills likely wouldn't bother. So that's how it would end. Opening Superman to the public domain would effectively kill the character. Just like Sherlock Holmes is dead. Oh...wait...he's not. Like Tarzan is dead....oh...wait...he's not. Like Alice in Wonderland is dead....oh wait...she's not. Ummmm...yeah. No. You're simply wrong.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 4, 2015 0:24:42 GMT -5
I think public domain would "kill" Superman only in the sense that kids would rarely, if ever, encounter him as non-comics merchandise. Where would our society be if we hadn't had all those years of wholesome Superman Peanut Butter to keep us protein packed and well fed?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 0:28:36 GMT -5
I think public domain would "kill" Superman only in the sense that kids would rarely, if ever, encounter him as non-comics merchandise. Where would our society be if we hadn't had all those years of wholesome Superman Peanut Butter to keep us protein packed and well fed? Well even if Superman went public domain, I am pretty sure DC would still retain the trademarks, since copyright and trademarks are two entirely different things, so they could still license and sell Superman merchandise if they chose. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 4, 2015 0:29:58 GMT -5
Yep. They would still retain the trademark to Superman. And I can't come up with any reason that DC wouldn't still publish Superman comics as long as they made money.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 4, 2015 0:39:49 GMT -5
I sometimes forget that copyrights and trademarks are totally different. Still, I suppose it's possible that if enough people were trying to market Superman merchandise, they'd all cancel each other out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 0:43:35 GMT -5
I sometimes forget that copyrights and trademarks are totally different. Still, I suppose it's possible that if enough people were trying to market Superman merchandise, they'd all cancel each other out. Well since DC would have the trademark on the name Superman and presumably the S shield, other people would have a hard time marketing Superman merchandise since they couldn't call it Superman or use the S shield. Same with people publishing Superman comic books, you can reprint the originals in the public domain, use the characters that are not DC property proper, but can't use Superman in the title or the trademarked parts of the Superman costume, so it's a little different than doing a new Dracula or Frankenstein story where there are no trademarks to deal with. -M
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 4, 2015 1:28:10 GMT -5
I was under the impression that trademarks on names could be gotten around in some cases simply by adding a hyphen or some such thing. I have no idea, of course, and I was just going on some of the things I've seen over the years. I do seem to remember someone marketing He-Man toys and getting around it by spelling it differently. There was also the time when you had Ghostbusters and The Real Ghostbusters.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 1:47:03 GMT -5
Now, lets pretend Superman was public domain. First order of business would be you'd never see him in a current DC comic again. So which publishers do publish public domain stuff? Pretty much just Zenescope and Dynamite. People act like it would be this magical situation where the world's greatest writers and artists would flock to Superman comics and every publisher would publish them. No, he'd be teaming up with Zorro in some stupid crossover from some other company. And a whole lot more amateur produced fanfic type homebrew webcomics. Professionals who rely on their trade to pay their bills likely wouldn't bother. So that's how it would end. Opening Superman to the public domain would effectively kill the character. Just like Sherlock Holmes is dead. Oh...wait...he's not. Like Tarzan is dead....oh...wait...he's not. Like Alice in Wonderland is dead....oh wait...she's not. Ummmm...yeah. No. You're simply wrong. How many of comics publishers are publishing Sherlock Holmes comics? Any good publishers? Same with Tarzan and Alice In Wonderland. They're all at one of the two publishers I mentioned. You kind of proved my point. The worlds greatest creators are now free to make all the Alice In Wonderland comics they want, but all that gets published is the garbage at Zenescope that only exists so people can collect the covers. Because good publishers rarely use public domain stuff. The reason is, if they spend all their money hiring top talent to build a following for something public domain, the cheap ripoff companies would come right behind them and flood the stands with imitation crap. Why would Marvel or DC want to do that? For that matter, why would Image or Dark Horse? Te only people who would love for that to happen are Dynamite, Zenescope, ect. so they can ride the coattails to the bank.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 2:14:56 GMT -5
Just like Sherlock Holmes is dead. Oh...wait...he's not. Like Tarzan is dead....oh...wait...he's not. Like Alice in Wonderland is dead....oh wait...she's not. Ummmm...yeah. No. You're simply wrong. How many of comics publishers are publishing Sherlock Holmes comics? Any good publishers? Same with Tarzan and Alice In Wonderland. They're all at one of the two publishers I mentioned. You kind of proved my point. The worlds greatest creators are now free to make all the Alice In Wonderland comics they want, but all that gets published is the garbage at Zenescope that only exists so people can collect the covers. Because good publishers rarely use public domain stuff. The reason is, if they spend all their money hiring top talent to build a following for something public domain, the cheap ripoff companies would come right behind them and flood the stands with imitation crap. Why would Marvel or DC want to do that? For that matter, why would Image or Dark Horse? Te only people who would love for that to happen are Dynamite, Zenescope, ect. so they can ride the coattails to the bank. How about Frankenstein and Dracula...Frankenstein is currently featured in comics by DC and Dark Horse and by IDW whenever Steve Niles and Bernie Wrightson (neither of whom could in any way be a top talent in the industry working on a public domain character by any means) finish an issue of Frankenstein Alive, Alive. Dracula is featuring in comics by a number of comics (Image included) and Sherlock Holmes (and Robin Hood, and Dracula and...) all feature in Five Ghosts published by...Image (not Zenoscope or Dynamite hmmmm...). So it's not jsut Dynamite and Zenoscope as you assert. As for Alice well Bryan Talbot (another not top talent) did Alice in Sunderland a few years back published by Dark Horse in the US and Jonathan Cape in the UK, the manga Alice in the Country of Hearts was put out by Tokyopop in the last few years as well. Also in the last few years, Image published Moriarty based on the Sherlock Holmes mythos and.... so you are putting opinions out there as to who is publishing what from the public domain, but the facts of who is actually using and publishing these characters are different than what you believe to be true. -M
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 4, 2015 3:14:04 GMT -5
I'd LOVE for DC to use Sherlock Holmes in relation to Batman more often. That Post-Crisis Barr/Davis issue was one of my favorites.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Apr 4, 2015 3:16:28 GMT -5
I had to share this. Looking for Superman Peanut Butter commercials lead me to it. Damn good animation and I think they nailed classic Superman.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 4:09:12 GMT -5
How many of comics publishers are publishing Sherlock Holmes comics? Any good publishers? Same with Tarzan and Alice In Wonderland. They're all at one of the two publishers I mentioned. You kind of proved my point. The worlds greatest creators are now free to make all the Alice In Wonderland comics they want, but all that gets published is the garbage at Zenescope that only exists so people can collect the covers. Because good publishers rarely use public domain stuff. The reason is, if they spend all their money hiring top talent to build a following for something public domain, the cheap ripoff companies would come right behind them and flood the stands with imitation crap. Why would Marvel or DC want to do that? For that matter, why would Image or Dark Horse? Te only people who would love for that to happen are Dynamite, Zenescope, ect. so they can ride the coattails to the bank. How about Frankenstein and Dracula...Frankenstein is currently featured in comics by DC and Dark Horse and by IDW whenever Steve Niles and Bernie Wrightson (neither of whom could in any way be a top talent in the industry working on a public domain character by any means) finish an issue of Frankenstein Alive, Alive. Dracula is featuring in comics by a number of comics (Image included) and Sherlock Holmes (and Robin Hood, and Dracula and...) all feature in Five Ghosts published by...Image (not Zenoscope or Dynamite hmmmm...). So it's not jsut Dynamite and Zenoscope as you assert. As for Alice well Bryan Talbot (another not top talent) did Alice in Sunderland a few years back published by Dark Horse in the US and Jonathan Cape in the UK, the manga Alice in the Country of Hearts was put out by Tokyopop in the last few years as well. Also in the last few years, Image published Moriarty based on the Sherlock Holmes mythos and.... so you are putting opinions out there as to who is publishing what from the public domain, but the facts of who is actually using and publishing these characters are different than what you believe to be true. -M For all of public domain to draw from you have very few examples outside my outline. "Based on the Sherlock Holmes mythos" is REALLY stretching here. Are there more Sherlock Holmes comics or Superman comics each month? Same question regarding ANY public domain license. Outside of a couple publishers they are a very rare appearance. Once in a great while there will be a King Arthur comic or something. But if Superman were public domain we could say once in a great while there will be a Superman comic.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Apr 4, 2015 10:52:34 GMT -5
How about Frankenstein and Dracula...Frankenstein is currently featured in comics by DC and Dark Horse and by IDW whenever Steve Niles and Bernie Wrightson (neither of whom could in any way be a top talent in the industry working on a public domain character by any means) finish an issue of Frankenstein Alive, Alive. Dracula is featuring in comics by a number of comics (Image included) and Sherlock Holmes (and Robin Hood, and Dracula and...) all feature in Five Ghosts published by...Image (not Zenoscope or Dynamite hmmmm...). So it's not jsut Dynamite and Zenoscope as you assert. As for Alice well Bryan Talbot (another not top talent) did Alice in Sunderland a few years back published by Dark Horse in the US and Jonathan Cape in the UK, the manga Alice in the Country of Hearts was put out by Tokyopop in the last few years as well. Also in the last few years, Image published Moriarty based on the Sherlock Holmes mythos and.... so you are putting opinions out there as to who is publishing what from the public domain, but the facts of who is actually using and publishing these characters are different than what you believe to be true. -M For all of public domain to draw from you have very few examples outside my outline. "Based on the Sherlock Holmes mythos" is REALLY stretching here. Are there more Sherlock Holmes comics or Superman comics each month? Same question regarding ANY public domain license. Outside of a couple publishers they are a very rare appearance. Once in a great while there will be a King Arthur comic or something. But if Superman were public domain we could say once in a great while there will be a Superman comic. Your bieber response in no way contradicts what I said, you said that if you were truly talented you'd have to be good to be successful and my point was that there was plenty of low quality stuff that was successful even with out a licences. And you've failed to address any of the other points, why is a piece always inherently inferior if it uses characters created by another? That has been your point, correct? But other than your own preferences, which are valid so far as your own buying habits are concerned, I haven't seen anything that would illustrate that your opinion would be valid in an objective sense, however myself and many others HAVE in fact illustrated many counter examples for why we believe your point of view is incorrect in the objective sense. In terms of Superman going into the public domain in the long term you'd most likely be correct, but in the short term we certainly wouldn't be facing a dearth of Superman comics. With a character like that on the free market there would undoubtedly be a flood of product and like any thing else they'd be a few that were good but a lot that was pretty terrible...and it would be those pretty terrible books that would cause that scarcity in the long term. As the sole rights holder DC has a vested interest in Superman remaining popular a profitable in the long term which means that they are going to at least try and put out the best they can, now they're not always successful and when they aren't for a sustained period that popularity and the profits that go with it plummet as we've seen many times through out its publication history. However, when they see that the market for Superman has shrunk due to it's lack of quality they try and remedy the situation because they are interested in the long term profits...but in the open market the same is not true, many of the companies are just looking for a quick buck with out a care for quality and in the long term that lack of quality control is going to damage the perception of the character and shrink the demand which is exactly what we've seen with many public domain characters. That natural process however hasn't stopped top talent from working with these characters and with some great results; Charles Vess, Gary Gianni, and Michael Kaluta did some great Tarzan books in the 90's for Dark Horse, as did Tom Yeats both in the 90's and today...and the list of creators associated with the upcoming anthology Jungle Tales of Tarzan being put out by Sequential Pulp looks pretty good too. Are there fewer books like this put out than there are Superman, absolutely and as I said that's largely due to what the market can bear but also it's writer interest, are all writers passionate fans of Tarzan and Holmes these days? Did they grow up with these characters being larg parts of their lives? Some are, which is why we occasionally see quality books with these characters, but the truth is they aren't as popular or as big a parts of our culture as characters like Batman and Superman so there aren't as many talented people there to sink their teeth into them. Now is that the only reason? Of course not, there are no doubt many writers and artists who shun using these characters because they share a similar view point as yourself and see working with other people's toys as an inherently lesser art, and that they hold that opinion is fine but it doesn't make it the absolute truth.
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