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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 23, 2017 8:26:14 GMT -5
Regarding the Zingaran king in The Changeling Quest: Could he perhaps have married the daughter of King Fedrugo from CONAN THE BUCANNEER? It depends on exactly when this story occurs because Marvel used several Zingaran kings at the time Conan was a pirate on the western sea. There is the unnamed, cruel and bald king from the changeling quest (SSoC #73), there is a king Sancho mentioned in SSoC #129 just after Conan gains captaincy of the Wastrel, there is aged king Ferdrugo in SSoC #40-43 (Conan the buccaneer), and Ferdrugo's daughter was married to a king Olivero in King Conan #2. I think the most parcimonious explanation is that the king from The changeling quest is Sancho, that he died shortly thereafter, and was succeeded by the already old Ferdrugo. (Since Ferdrugo really sounded like a guy who had ruled for so many years that he had grown tired of his job, a little bit of retroactive continuity could make it so Ferdrugo abdicated the throne to his son Sancho, who died without heirs, prompting is father to retake the crown until his daughter Chabela came of age or took a husband. I'm sure that's the kind of thing Roy would have loved to write!!!) |
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Post by elliotja on Mar 23, 2017 12:40:41 GMT -5
But if Fedrugo was that sick of being king, why would he take up the crown again, rather than just handing it straight to his daughter?
Here's another theory, though it requires a bit of retconning: Sancho (the "king" in Changeling Quest) was Fedrugo's son or nephew, who ruled as regent for a short while when Fedrugo was sick or busy elsewhere. By the time of CONAN THE BUCANNEER, Sancho has died somehow, leaving Fedrugo with only his daughter.
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Post by elliotja on Mar 23, 2017 12:58:51 GMT -5
Also, regarding the characters in the "Skull on the Seas" story reaching Uluru in central Australia only a short time after arriving on the Australian coast: Perhaps Australia at this time was subject to minor space distortions, similar to the one Conan and company evidently used to visit the Mountains of Madness on the other side of the Antarctic continent in the "Stalker of the Snows" story in Conan the Savage, which enabled people to cross significant distances much quicker than normal? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 23, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5
But if Fedrugo was that sick of being king, why would he take up the crown again, rather than just handing it straight to his daughter? She might have been considered too young, or deep down he thought she couldn't do the job. Or maybe Zingara has macho laws saying a woman cannot directly inherit the crown; only her husband. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but we must find a way to reconcile the facts that he wasn't king a few months before Conan the buccaneer, and was a tired old king when that story began. (Perhaps he never wanted to be king to begin with, actually).  ) I like that!!! |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 23, 2017 13:16:27 GMT -5
Also, regarding the characters in the "Skull on the Seas" story reaching Uluru in central Australia only a short time after arriving on the Australian coast: Perhaps Australia at this time was subject to minor space distortions, similar to the one Conan and company evidently used to visit the Mountains of Madness on the other side of the Antarctic continent in the "Stalker of the Snows" story in Conan the Savage, which enabled people to cross significant distances much quicker than normal? Works for me! One never knows, when dream gods tread the land. |
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Post by elliotja on Mar 23, 2017 13:21:57 GMT -5
Also, regarding the characters in the "Skull on the Seas" story reaching Uluru in central Australia only a short time after arriving on the Australian coast: Perhaps Australia at this time was subject to minor space distortions, similar to the one Conan and company evidently used to visit the Mountains of Madness on the other side of the Antarctic continent in the "Stalker of the Snows" story in Conan the Savage, which enabled people to cross significant distances much quicker than normal? Works for me! One never knows, when dream gods thread the land. Yes, good point. Maybe the dream snakes were manipulating space and time to an extent. Or alternatively, we can simply pretend it wasn't really Uluru, but somewhere much closer to the coast! Alas, we will never know, but this is such a fun adventure, I can't just discard it  |
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Post by elliotja on Mar 23, 2017 16:26:27 GMT -5
While I generally like the numerous Kull yarns in SSOC, the one which actually depicted young Kull slaying Rotath of Lemuria (in a prequel to the story in CtB #37) is full of serious geographical errors. It begins at Lemuria-of-the-West, somewhere west of Thuria and in the general vicinity of Atlantis, where agents of the Lemurian king Asfodel IV have arrived with the news that the king wants someone to go to Rotath's "isle" and kill him; a group of Lemurian pirates, among whom is Kull, are chosen for the task. Rotath's island is presented as being not very far from Lemuria-of-the-West, as one sailor even jumps ship and swims there to warn Rotath! This is simply not consistent with Thurian/Hyborian geography. In CtB #37, the temple where Rotath was slain by Kull is firmly established to lie somewhere in the far north of Turan; in the Thurian Age this area was probably part of Zarfaanah or Grondar. The point is, that entire region was landlocked. There were no seas or large bodies of water between it and Valusia through which the Lemurians could have sent a ship. Sorry, but I think this story has to be written off as apocryphal; there are way too many inconsistencies. And Rotath has apparently already turned his skeleton into gold....why??? Makes no sense.
I would have placed the time of Kull's killing of Rotath in the period when he was a general in King Borna's army. It would align with King Asfodel IV appealing to foreign kings for help in eliminating Rotath, as in the original tale, and would make sense of Rotath being surprised that Kull has become ruler of Valusia in the RAVAGERS OUT OF TIME graphic novel.
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bran
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Post by bran on Mar 28, 2017 4:18:41 GMT -5
These reviews are great, Raider I hope you keep on with Conan mini-series and other issues.
There are at least 4 miniseries written/adapted by Roy Thomas:
Lord of the Spiders
Scarlet Sword
Road of Kings (DH)
Death Covered in Gold (full Buscema, pencil+ink)
I wonder where would you place that one, for sure it's between Turanian army phase and Queen of the Black Coast. (According to chronology I found in another thread it's right in between Night of the Dark God (ST4) and The Curse of the Conjurer CB46, any objections to that?)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 28, 2017 7:24:34 GMT -5
These reviews are great, Raider I hope you keep on with Conan mini-series and other issues. There are at least 4 miniseries written/adapted by Roy Thomas: Lord of the Spiders Scarlet Sword Road of Kings (DH) Death Covered in Gold (full Buscema, pencil+ink) I wonder where would you place that one, for sure it's between Turanian army phase and Queen of the Black Coast. (According to chronology I found in another thread it's right in between Night of the Dark God (ST4) and The Curse of the Conjurer CB46, any objections to that?) You're right, Death covered in gold is placed a little while after the Turanian army period. It is something of a continuity headache, too, because it shows Conan reuniting with Jenna years after he dumped her in a cesspool in CtB #11. The problem is that J.M. DeMatteis had already shown such a reunion in CtB #118, set several months after Bêlit's death! I try to reconcile the two by assuming that when Conan met Jenna in issue 118, the two of them just omitted to mention that they had already met again since CtB #11. I doubt the miniseries could be placed right in between Night of the dark god and the curse of the conjurer, even if it must have happened around those days, simply on the ground of parsimony. The first tale is set in Cimmeria, while the second occurs in Phalkar, described as a principality in the Border Kingdom. Cimmeria and the Border Kingdom are right next to each other, so it's simple to have Conan move from one to the next... but Death covered in gold is set in Ophir, far to the south. Conan would have had to make a very long detour to go from Cimmeria to Ophir and thence to the Border Kingdom (where he'd probably have little reason to go to, apart from just passing through). Death covered in gold could be set a little before Dark god or a little after Conjurer, but neither position is very satisfying. Dark god shows Conan working as a mercenary (presumably somewhere in the east), getting fed up with war and worldly pursuits, and riding hell-bent for home to see Mara, his childhood girlfriend. That doesn't seem compatible with his stopping in Ophir to look for gold. Meanwhile, after Conjurer, we get into the Black Shadow storyline that begins in Nemedia (to the north of Ophir). After that cycle, Conan rides westwards to Argos with his friends Tara and Yusef, and so there's no way he could have gone to Ophir on his own. I'd be tempted to place Death covered in gold earlier, between CtB #15 and #17. After #15, Conan leaves Koth to go either to Cimmeria (if you consider that CtB #16 is in continuity, and not a fill-in issue) or to northern Turan (if you jump from #15 to #17). In both cases, Ophir is either right on the way or a very slight detour away. |
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bran
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Post by bran on Mar 28, 2017 15:54:58 GMT -5
You're right, Death covered in gold is placed a little while after the Turanian army period. It is something of a continuity headache, too, because it shows Conan reuniting with Jenna years after he dumped her in a cesspool in CtB #11. The problem is that J.M. DeMatteis had already shown such a reunion in CtB #118, set several months after Bêlit's death! I try to reconcile the two by assuming that when Conan met Jenna in issue 118, the two of them just omitted to mention that they had already met again since CtB #11. I doubt the miniseries could be placed right in between Night of the dark god and the curse of the conjurer, even if it must have happened around those days, simply on the ground of parsimony. The first tale is set in Cimmeria, while the second occurs in Phalkar, described as a principality in the Border Kingdom. Cimmeria and the Border Kingdom are right next to each other, so it's simple to have Conan move from one to the next... but Death covered in gold is set in Ophir, far to the south. Conan would have had to make a very long detour to go from Cimmeria to Ophir and thence to the Border Kingdom (where he'd probably have little reason to go to, apart from just passing through). Death covered in gold could be set a little before Dark god or a little after Conjurer, but neither position is very satisfying. Dark god shows Conan working as a mercenary (presumably somewhere in the east), getting fed up with war and worldly pursuits, and riding hell-bent for home to see Mara, his childhood girlfriend. That doesn't seem compatible with his stopping in Ophir to look for gold. Meanwhile, after Conjurer, we get into the Black Shadow storyline that begins in Nemedia (to the north of Ophir). After that cycle, Conan rides westwards to Argos with his friends Tara and Yusef, and so there's no way he could have gone to Ophir on his own. I'd be tempted to place Death covered in gold earlier, between CtB #15 and #17. After #15, Conan leaves Koth to go either to Cimmeria (if you consider that CtB #16 is in continuity, and not a fill-in issue) or to northern Turan (if you jump from #15 to #17). In both cases, Ophir is either right on the way or a very slight detour away. Haha this is great. I have to say I am not counting in non-Roy Thomas stories, but you are including them as well - now that's complicated. The Frost Giant's Daughter right? No, not at all - I place it as the 3rd story! The only 2 ahead are 2 yarns from Conan's childhood: Old Garrad's Heart and Day of Manhood. It fits there perfectly: The unrests and tribal wars started. Our story starts at the aftermath of some early and particularly bloody battle. [BTW that battle happened off-page is a stroke of genius. Kurosava used it in one of his pictures, to the similar effect.] At the end, when young Conan wakes up - he is surrounded by friendly elders from his tribe, whom we also see (one of them) in The Legions of the Dead. The Legions of the Dead directly predates The Twilight of the Grim Grey God. So Coming of Conan follows right after it. Your opinion on the later? Any problems with Coming happening right after The Twilight. From then on it's relatively easy: Couple of adventures in the snow, then at the end of The Thing in the Crypt he makes the decision to go south. Now there - he is not specific, he is not thinking of particular place in Arenjun or Shadizar, or of particular people, just south. Just as someone who never been there. The Lair of the Ice Worm fits right there, after the Crypt. At the end of The Lair he is heading towards the big Sun on the horizon, and a city filled with gold, wine and women in silk. |
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Post by elliotja on Mar 31, 2017 5:47:57 GMT -5
You're right, Death covered in gold is placed a little while after the Turanian army period. It is something of a continuity headache, too, because it shows Conan reuniting with Jenna years after he dumped her in a cesspool in CtB #11. The problem is that J.M. DeMatteis had already shown such a reunion in CtB #118, set several months after Bêlit's death! I try to reconcile the two by assuming that when Conan met Jenna in issue 118, the two of them just omitted to mention that they had already met again since CtB #11. I doubt the miniseries could be placed right in between Night of the dark god and the curse of the conjurer, even if it must have happened around those days, simply on the ground of parsimony. The first tale is set in Cimmeria, while the second occurs in Phalkar, described as a principality in the Border Kingdom. Cimmeria and the Border Kingdom are right next to each other, so it's simple to have Conan move from one to the next... but Death covered in gold is set in Ophir, far to the south. Conan would have had to make a very long detour to go from Cimmeria to Ophir and thence to the Border Kingdom (where he'd probably have little reason to go to, apart from just passing through). Death covered in gold could be set a little before Dark god or a little after Conjurer, but neither position is very satisfying. Dark god shows Conan working as a mercenary (presumably somewhere in the east), getting fed up with war and worldly pursuits, and riding hell-bent for home to see Mara, his childhood girlfriend. That doesn't seem compatible with his stopping in Ophir to look for gold. Meanwhile, after Conjurer, we get into the Black Shadow storyline that begins in Nemedia (to the north of Ophir). After that cycle, Conan rides westwards to Argos with his friends Tara and Yusef, and so there's no way he could have gone to Ophir on his own. I'd be tempted to place Death covered in gold earlier, between CtB #15 and #17. After #15, Conan leaves Koth to go either to Cimmeria (if you consider that CtB #16 is in continuity, and not a fill-in issue) or to northern Turan (if you jump from #15 to #17). In both cases, Ophir is either right on the way or a very slight detour away. Haha this is great. I have to say I am not counting in non-Roy Thomas stories, but you are including them as well - now that's complicated. The Frost Giant's Daughter right? No, not at all - I place it as the 3rd story! The only 2 ahead are 2 yarns from Conan's childhood: Old Garrad's Heart and Day of Manhood. It fits there perfectly: The unrests and tribal wars started. Our story starts at the aftermath of some early and particularly bloody battle. [BTW that battle happened off-page is a stroke of genius. Kurosava used it in one of his pictures, to the similar effect.] At the end, when young Conan wakes up - he is surrounded by friendly elders from his tribe, whom we also see (one of them) in The Legions of the Dead. The Legions of the Dead directly predates The Twilight of the Grim Grey God. So Coming of Conan follows right after it. Your opinion on the later? Any problems with Coming happening right after The Twilight. From then on it's relatively easy: Couple of adventures in the snow, then at the end of The Thing in the Crypt he makes the decision to go south. Now there - he is not specific, he is not thinking of particular place in Arenjun or Shadizar, or of particular people, just south. Just as someone who never been there. The Lair of the Ice Worm fits right there, after the Crypt. At the end of The Lair he is heading towards the big Sun on the horizon, and a city filled with gold, wine and women in silk. For me, Conan's early adventures go like this: People of the Dark The Coming of Conan Lair of the Beast-Men The Demon Out of the Deep Legions of the Dead The Thing in the Crypt (Conan captured by a second band of Hyperborean slavers briefly; looses sword from the crypt; manages to escape again) The Shadow in the Tomb Twilight of the Grim Grey God |
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bran
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Post by bran on Mar 31, 2017 11:05:57 GMT -5
For me, Conan's early adventures go like this: People of the Dark The Coming of Conan Lair of the Beast-Men The Demon Out of the Deep Legions of the Dead The Thing in the Crypt (Conan captured by a second band of Hyperborean slavers briefly; looses sword from the crypt; manages to escape again) The Shadow in the Tomb Twilight of the Grim Grey God Right, it can work in several ways. I have Conan on a single long shelf, and whoever wants to borrow it, receives reading-order instructions LOL (and has to return the books in the same order, that's the condition). Everyone mentions how the order makes it a full fledged saga, that much a better read. Reading in SSC publishing order is annoying because of sudden change in scenery and time, and because of mentioning of side characters (and events) off and on page. [Suffice to say I mixed up all Marvel editions (in Hyborian order, it's epic) with the exception of mini-series, have no clue where they fit.] So as a casual reader, and not an expert (Raider can help us here), these things I took into consideration (when sorting): - Legions of the Dead is a direct prequel to Twilight, and at that time he is with Aesir people. It's like his second/adopted tribe. They of course expect him to fight for them (so in effect he is a mercenary; in fact he even frames himself as a mercenary later on in Coming. Smooth!). - In Twilight he witnessed deaths of not less than two kings, and has seen and got involved, in more than any of the tribal chieftains. Close to power centers, he's been in the belly of the beast in that one, as if he spoke with God himself. - The war is still on, after Twilight Conan rejoins Aesir and delivers what he is payed for. - In Coming, he is with Aesir, but mentions he is not particularly attached: "I've done my work for Aesir gold". - At the end of Coming, once Conan leaves Aesir people - there is no going back. There is a streak of solo-adventures one after another. - The Frost Giants Daughter takes place early on, before Legions of the Dead. "The Frost" is BTW a perfect opener, incredible story about innocence lost, coming of age and becoming a man. (It's not really about giants-giants, as in Middle-earth giants. As he is very young at the time - two brothers, who are grown men in their 30s/40s, they appear to him as giants, a metaphor. Very strong in subtext, that story.) |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 31, 2017 12:37:15 GMT -5
For me, Conan's early adventures go like this: People of the Dark The Coming of Conan Lair of the Beast-Men The Demon Out of the Deep Legions of the Dead The Thing in the Crypt (Conan captured by a second band of Hyperborean slavers briefly; looses sword from the crypt; manages to escape again) The Shadow in the Tomb Twilight of the Grim Grey God Right, it can work in several ways. I have Conan on a single long shelf, and whoever wants to borrow it, receives reading-order instructions LOL (and has to return the books in the same order, that's the condition). Everyone mentions how the order makes it a full fledged saga, that much a better read. Reading in SSC publishing order is annoying because of sudden change in scenery and time, and because of mentioning of side characters (and events) off and on page. [Suffice to say I mixed up all Marvel editions (in Hyborian order, it's epic) with the exception of mini-series, have no clue where they fit.] So as a casual reader, and not an expert (Raider can help us here), these things I took into consideration (when sorting): - Legions of the Dead is a direct prequel to Twilight, and at that time he is with Aesir people. It's like his second/adopted tribe. They of course expect him to fight for them (so in effect he is a mercenary; in fact he even frames himself as a mercenary later on in Coming. Smooth!). - In Twilight he witnessed deaths of not less than two kings, and has seen and got involved, in more than any of the tribal chieftains. Close to power centers, he's been in the belly of the beast in that one, as if he spoke with God himself. - The war is still on, after Twilight Conan rejoins Aesir and delivers what he is payed for. - In Coming, he is with Aesir, but mentions he is not particularly attached: "I've done my work for Aesir gold". - At the end of Coming, once Conan leaves Aesir people - there is no going back. There is a streak of solo-adventures one after another. - The Frost Giants Daughter takes place early on, before Legions of the Dead. "The Frost" is BTW a perfect opener, incredible story about innocence lost, coming of age and becoming a man. (It's not really about giants-giants, as in Middle-earth giants. As he is very young at the time - two brothers, who are grown men in their 30s/40s, they appear to him as giants, a metaphor. Very strong in subtext, that story.) It is parcimonious to assume that Conan does not retread the same ground too often. His very first adventure would then be set in Cimmeria, before he leaves his homeland for the first time. Conan the adventurer #1 (the sack of Venarium) and People of the Dark (SSoC#6) would be placed there. Conan next travels north, where he works as a mercenary for the Aesir against their traditional enemies, the Vanir to the west and the Hyperboreans to the east. The coming of Conan (CtB#1), the demon out of the deep (CtB#69), Lair of the beast-men (CtB#2), the shadow in the tomb (CtB#31) can all be placed in that period in no particular order -although I would favour publication order as much as possible. Then the next logical point is the frost giant's daughter (Savage Tales #1), set somewhere in the west of Aesgaard. It is the last time Conan will fight Vanirmen before he and his band move eastward to fight Hyperboreans. We know this happened because in that band is old Gorm, a character who is also present in Legions of the dead (set in Hyperborea) (SSoC#38). The Aesir fight the Hyperborean witch Vamatar and are defeated. Conan is captured, and escapes in CtB#254 (Havoc in Hyperborea) with a chain loosely attached to both his wrists. This is probably meant to be the chain he still wears in twilight of the grim grey god (CtB#3), but we must also account for the thing in the crypt (CtB#92), which is also sets after Conan escapes from Hyperboreans. Just how many times can one lad escape the same jailers? My own take on it is that CtB#92 simply omitted to draw the chain on Conan's wrists, and that the proper order is Frost giant's daughter - Legion of the dead - Havoc in Hyperborea - the thing in the crypt - twilight of the grim grey god. After CtB#3, Conan is in Brythunia, no longer in the north, and as he continues his journey he eventually reaches Zamora for CtB#4 and tower of the elephant. So much continuity to sift through... we're like Roy Thomas's sidekicks!!! |
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bran
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Post by bran on Mar 31, 2017 16:47:41 GMT -5
This is probably meant to be the chain he still wears in twilight of the grim grey god (CtB#3), but we must also account for the thing in the crypt (CtB#92), which is also sets after Conan escapes from Hyperboreans. Just how many times can one lad escape the same jailers? My own take on it is that CtB#92 simply omitted to draw the chain on Conan's wrists That kind of drasatic chronology omission can happen to anyone - not to Roy. My take is that The Thing in the Crypt happens after events recorded in issues 2 and 3 (not in between as stated in intro; or keep words in between and replace 2 and 3 with 3 and 4). That however means he went north after the Brythunian border war (and not further south). So "snow adventures" (Lair of the Beast-Men etc) go next, and then he goes south. |
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Post by elliotja on May 2, 2017 14:42:12 GMT -5
So is The Changeling Quest before or after Pool of the Black One?
And what about his encounters with Bor'Aqh Sharaq?
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