shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 21:27:30 GMT -5
And, in the spirit of keeping things nicer around here, let's not call someone's opinion "patently false," especially when they are brand new to our community. Let the evidence prove that. Fair enough but I don't think I was replying to an opinion rather a statement which is indeed erroneous. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Calling it a false equivalency instead sounds more tactful. For what it's worth, I completely agreed with your sentiment, but "patently false" definitely has a belittling tone to it, though that may not have been your intent. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jul 18, 2014 21:50:52 GMT -5
I shouldn't have highlighted that. My bad. But let's not lose the thread. Shax showed us evidence of a nearly 46 percent female readership. How cool is that? Is that even possible?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 22:02:00 GMT -5
I shouldn't have highlighted that. My bad. But let's not lose the thread. Shax showed us evidence of a nearly 46 percent female readership. How cool is that? Is that even possible? Yes, and using the small sample of the pull lists and buying patterns at our shop a lot of them are not reading the big 2...and the Marvel/DC books that were drawing the heaviest female readership were the likes of Batwoman (before Blackmon/J.H. Williams III left), Captain Marvel, Hawkeye, Young Avengers, Loki in Journey into Mystery, and such, not the big franchises and the event books, but smaller character driven books even if the characters were then involved in epic stories. What was selling was books like Saga, Walking Dead, Buffy/Angel, Star Wars, Lazarus etc. New launches that drew in a lot of female readers at our shop-Harley Quinn, The Wicked + the Divine. In the 2 years I have been helping our LCS put together their monthly order and help them track their pull sales, I have seen the number of female customer pulls increase by over 300% and I have watched closely the books that were on those lists so I could start picking out books for recommended reading lists and such to help grow sales for the shop. It's still nowhere near 46% of our pulls, but it is growing steadily. -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 22:03:50 GMT -5
Yup. My LCS has confirmed repeatedly that the bulk of new customers are female, they're the ones spending the most money, and they are primarily spending it on independent, often non-superhero, titles.
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 18, 2014 22:04:35 GMT -5
I shouldn't have highlighted that. My bad. But let's not lose the thread. Shax showed us evidence of a nearly 46 percent female readership. How cool is that? Is that even possible? If you read the comments of that article shaxper posted, it seems the percentage was based on "Facebook methodology", basically breaking down demographics of the total likes Facebook pages relating to comics had, so I don't know how factual or accurate that study is.
Comics do have a sordid history of portraying women with unrealistic body standards, and yes it has something to do with the community being by and large mostly male for most of the century,but I do think we still downplay when male characters are being abused, bound, and controlled, compared to when the same is done with female characters.
I'll admit women portrayed as eye candy more than men in comics, but I won't admit that the treatment of male characters is overwhelmingly positive either. I'm not going to paint this varied and complex issue with a broad brush and say "men are oppressors, women are victims, 100% of the time" because things aren't so black and white.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 22:09:22 GMT -5
If you read the comments of that article shaxper posted, it seems the percentage was based on "Facebook methodology", basically breaking down demographics of the total likes Facebook pages relating to comics had, so I don't know how factual or accurate that study is. True, but there's really no more reliable way to obtain such demographic data. LCSes don't report their customers' genders to Diamond each month. The numbers may be off somewhat, but this was the result of some painstaking research and is likely in the ballpark. I think the difference is that, in the real world, most women spend a good deal of time fearing being sexually attacked. Even women who are strong, gutsy, and live in safe neighborhoods feel a mild terror when in an elevator with a strange man or in a lonely parking lot with two big men nearby that men never experience. Thus, when women are sexually dominated in a comic, it carries with it a real-world application that isn't there for most men. And, again, women are depicted this way in comics more often and in a more sexualized fashion. |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 18, 2014 22:24:01 GMT -5
I think the difference is that, in the real world, most women spend a good deal of time fearing being sexually attacked. Even women who are strong, gutsy, and live in safe neighborhoods feel a mild terror when in an elevator with a strange man or in a lonely parking lot with two big men nearby that men never experience. Thus, when women are sexually dominated in a comic, it carries with it a real-world application that isn't there for most men. And, again, women are depicted this way in comics more often and in a more sexualized fashion. I want to try to keep this discussion focused on comics and not on real-world issues regarding feminism or rape culture, but going back to the broad brush analogy, I think it's unfair to say that every woman fears men in some way, shape, or form. That generalization, and borders on stereotyping. How would it be any different if we said "every white person feels a mild terror around African Americans wearing hoodies?", not only would this make it sound as if every Caucasian person on Earth is distrusting of minorities, it also implies that every person of color has a tendency or a desire to cause harm to Caucasian persons. You could say the same about religious persons and homosexuals. This categorization of groups does more harm than good in my opinion, because it implies inherent and natural schisms between groups. That's just how I see the issue though. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jul 18, 2014 22:24:32 GMT -5
Gotta remember that readership is only half the equation. The business itself has to tip more toward XX before we have true equilibrium, though we do have more successful, professional female creators now than at any previous time (that we know of, since we went hilariously, disastrously out of our way to discourage female participation).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 22:33:50 GMT -5
I want to try to keep this discussion focused on comics and not on real-world issues regarding feminism or rape culture, Except that the reason this trend is disturbing is precisely because of what it mirrors (and, some would argue, perpetuates) in the real world. If that culture didn't exist in the real world, no one would care much how it showed up on the comics page. That's not exactly what I said. I said, at some point, most women fear a sexual attack, not that most women go around terrified of the male sex and all its membership. I think you're reading something into what I wrote that wasn't implied. Most women routinely fear being the victim of a sexual attack from a male when placed in certain precarious situations. That's reality. It doesn't imply that most men want to sexually attack women, nor that most women are actively thinking bad things about men. |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 19, 2014 6:24:50 GMT -5
I think you're reading something into what I wrote that wasn't implied. Most women routinely fear being the victim of a sexual attack from a male when placed in certain precarious situations. That's reality. It doesn't imply that most men want to sexually attack women, nor that most women are actively thinking bad things about men. Perhaps I could've phrased it better, but what I meant was that while I'm sure it's true that a lot of women are concerned about such situations (not being a woman myself, I'm not going to speak for the billions of them on the planet), you could say that about any group or demographic, not just women. Not just women fear about walking down a deserted street alone at night, because so would I, who wouldn't feel guarded in that situation? Most homosexuals would fear for their lives if they were around your stereotypical redneck or biker. Most Caucasians would fear being around a group of African Americans wearing hoodies and baggy jeans. Most African Americans would fear being around a group of white men with shaved heads and "White Pride" shirts. It's not just women, everyone experiences these fears due to numerous factors, one of the biggest being the media emphasizing that there are racial, sexual, religious, and political differences between us. We separate ourselves using labels and streotypes and thus create a culture of fear that is experienced by all persons and groups.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on Jul 19, 2014 8:57:30 GMT -5
;The good news is that the disparity is slowly, gradually tilting toward equilibrium as more and more female fans take an interest. . And, in the spirit of keeping things nicer around here, let's not call someone's opinion "patently false," especially when they are brand new to our community. Let the evidence prove that. that link says they are fans not readers. i know its crappy anecodotal evidence but the girls/women i've met who like comic characters - it's always the films - its anne hathaway as catwoman or who is playing who in the next marvel film. None of them read the comics. if there really were that many female readers, and they were weighing in with their support of female led books then these books would be right at the top of the sales charts. There's only a few to support and the quality of the ones i read is top notch. Instead most of these books will be lucky to last 12 issues. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 11:52:59 GMT -5
that link says they are fans not readers. i know its crappy anecodotal evidence but the girls/women i've met who like comic characters - it's always the films - its anne hathaway as catwoman or who is playing who in the next marvel film. None of them read the comics. if there really were that many female readers, and they were weighing in with their support of female led books then these books would be right at the top of the sales charts. There's only a few to support and the quality of the ones i read is top notch. Instead most of these books will be lucky to last 12 issues. If we look at one of the most vocal of the new female led groups-The Carol Corps that rose up in support of DeConnick's Captain Marvel series and created a fan movement on Tumblr and other places for the book, they were readers, they just weren't buying the books in a manner that showed up on Diamond's sales chart as most were reading digitally or via trade-you know those sales outside the comic shop that Diamond doesn't account for. -M |
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on Jul 19, 2014 12:55:02 GMT -5
that link says they are fans not readers. i know its crappy anecodotal evidence but the girls/women i've met who like comic characters - it's always the films - its anne hathaway as catwoman or who is playing who in the next marvel film. None of them read the comics. if there really were that many female readers, and they were weighing in with their support of female led books then these books would be right at the top of the sales charts. There's only a few to support and the quality of the ones i read is top notch. Instead most of these books will be lucky to last 12 issues. If we look at one of the most vocal of the new female led groups-The Carol Corps that rose up in support of DeConnick's Captain Marvel series and created a fan movement on Tumblr and other places for the book, they were readers, they just weren't buying the books in a manner that showed up on Diamond's sales chart as most were reading digitally or via trade-you know those sales outside the comic shop that Diamond doesn't account for. -M no but you can work backwards - comixology sold $90m worth of comics - and you can see amazon's graphic novel best seller lists. To get anything near a 47% female readership (as opposed to fans) they are going to be a massive presence in those 2 markets as they only appear to have a narrow showing in floppies. $90m for both male and female suggests that 24.7m female fans arent readers or if they are buying 1 digital floppy at full price a year and it's easy enough to see what happens on amazon when marvel trades it's female characters. i'd love to be wrong - the more diverse the readership the wider the range of books we get and of course the market across the whole industry when you take i dont know all ages, manga, OGNS etc is far more equal but nothing from those figures convinces me that women as a big market segment are dropping cash on ms marvel or any superhero book. |
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Post by kurrgomaul on Jul 19, 2014 13:48:05 GMT -5
I think you're reading something into what I wrote that wasn't implied. Most women routinely fear being the victim of a sexual attack from a male when placed in certain precarious situations. That's reality. It doesn't imply that most men want to sexually attack women, nor that most women are actively thinking bad things about men. Perhaps I could've phrased it better, but what I meant was that while I'm sure it's true that a lot of women are concerned about such situations (not being a woman myself, I'm not going to speak for the billions of them on the planet), you could say that about any group or demographic, not just women. Not just women fear about walking down a deserted street alone at night, because so would I, who wouldn't feel guarded in that situation? Most homosexuals would fear for their lives if they were around your stereotypical redneck or biker. Most Caucasians would fear being around a group of African Americans wearing hoodies and baggy jeans. Most African Americans would fear being around a group of white men with shaved heads and "White Pride" shirts. It's not just women, everyone experiences these fears due to numerous factors, one of the biggest being the media emphasizing that there are racial, sexual, religious, and political differences between us. We separate ourselves using labels and streotypes and thus create a culture of fear that is experienced by all persons and groups.
this is true, its a sad truth but yes at cons I definatley feel that dealers are more paranoid of me than they'd be of whites or Asians or whatever, they'll come up to me and be like "can I help you?" and some of them are being nice and genuinely friendly....some are doing it to keep an eye on me because they'd think I gonna swipe their merchandise, so yeah I think minorities have to deal with their own problems,just as most women do, but I think our plights are often cast in the foreground thinking that blacks have a tendency to steal because they assume we';ve all had a bad upbringing and under the poverty line....youre right tough, everybody's gotta deal with these problems... becase it's hard not to hold prejudice when the media makes it seem like the stereotypes are true, it just causes more alienation and more prejudice. it does seems the media just focuses on womens issues though, and that does need to be addressed, but men can be victims of abuse too you know. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 19, 2014 14:00:11 GMT -5
this is true, its a sad truth but yes at cons I definatley feel that dealers are more paranoid of me than they'd be of whites or Asians or whatever, they'll come up to me and be like "can I help you?" and some of them are being nice and genuinely friendly....some are doing it to keep an eye on me because they'd think I gonna swipe their merchandise, so yeah I think minorities have to deal with their own problems,just as most women do, but I think our plights are often cast in the foreground thinking that blacks have a tendency to steal because they assume we';ve all had a bad upbringing and under the poverty line....youre right tough, everybody's gotta deal with these problems... becase it's hard not to hold prejudice when the media makes it seem like the stereotypes are true, it just causes more alienation and more prejudice. It really sucks that that's been your experience. I'm sorry. For what it's worth, your profile picture depicts you as pretty much the most un-threatening guy in the world  |
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