shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 12:42:20 GMT -5
That's my point. DC and the fans are perfectly willing to accept Wonder Woman as a sexual being only as long as she is submissive. If portrayed in her original way, as a sexually powerful being, in charge, it scares both the powers that be as well as the average comic buyer. My bad for misunderstanding your meaning. We're all working to get better at this Said the poopiehead. Don't make me find an upstanding group of bridge-playing socialites who dabble in devil worship to politely ask you to kill yourself before being shamed by a line of scripture.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 12:44:21 GMT -5
The original character of Wonder Woman as created by Marston is all about female sexual power. She is meant to be an assertive, sexual woman in control, it was the entire basis of her creation. Yet both DC and the fans run away from this reality out of what hits me as more fear then anything else. I think the point that's been repeatedly made in this conversation is that, while the "sexual" nature of Wonder Woman remains emphasized, the "power" part has not, and therein lies the problem. That was certainly true of the '70s bondage covers. Both points are valid. As Rick said WW was original created as a dominate female personality. The BDS&M elements of the covers and panels posted (I have not read the source material) certainly seem to be there as both part of the character as much as a elements of driving sales points. Sex sells. Even if a dominatrix superheroine appeals to a smaller group of readers. It obviously appealed to Marston (from what I've read about him seemed to grasp the concept well) and some people of that time as it sold copies. Maybe not a huge group, but perhaps others read it for other reasons and the bondage parts of the books weren't a big deal or offensive to them enough to not buy and read the book. Characters shouldn't be defined in what is such a small aspect of being human. We all have sex to procreate. We have a biological urge and a biological mechanism to make it enjoyable to the senses so that we continue to copulate. What things that makes that mechanism go in over drive to make it more enjoyable may be giving the reins to the gal (literally even if you want) and letting go. Which brings me to what shaxper pointed out. I can't agree that there is or should be a difference as long as it is a consensual act. Both parties agree to what they are involved in. No one is "degraded" beyond what they are willing to be a part of and both parties should agree on this. Now if we are talking comics and fiction, then outside of violence there should be no siding with either gender as what is agreeable in society to see if. If sexually degrading a woman is wrong, then so is a man, whether it is by the opposite gender or the same. If WW can't be sexualized that Superman better wear a toga. Most all comic characters (especially super hero comics) are sexualized to some extent these days, if not from the start. It's fantasy. And boys (the biggest readers) want to imagine themselves and strong and powerful looking men as much as the want to fantasize about the perfect female form. What is ingrained in our brains as humans is to find the most appealing mate to copulate with. Why should that be different in the fiction that we entertain ourselves with? Because from the start most monotheistic religions have taught the male as the superior of the two genders. Even if you as a person aren't religious ... its there. Women's liberation, right to vote, and other equal rights movements wouldn't even be in place if it were for these "holy texts" that we are suppose to abide by. It's why something that can't be debated as any more "legit" than the Bible itself never made it to the teachings of Christianity because it down plays the role of the man which would collapse the whole Christian mechanism ... From the Alphabet of Ben Sira .... "While God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Genesis 2:18). He also created a woman, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith immediately began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Creator: 'Sovereign of the universe!' he said, 'the woman you gave me has run away.' At once, the Holy One, blessed be He, sent these three angels to bring her back." That's the mentality that this is even a conversation. Degradation of any human for any reason or in any way is inexcusable. But that we still to do this day take sides or make excuses for the other side, seems that we still have no grasp on equality. That men fear the power of a woman or giving her the opportunity to really be on equal shows a huge weakness as a gender. And extremely liberal women hating on men for what they have done all these years shows a real lack of desire to truly be equal as a species. I really believe that we can be equal as a species if we want to. But when we make these points of argument part of discourse it seems that we go with something being a offense the more that it's done, not that is done even once. Granted these are fictional characters and they are only allowed to dissuade or change our views on what we already believe if we let them. Will I ever feel inferior as a man because I take a submissive role or allow my wife the freedoms she deserves as being a equal partner in our relationship? No. Will I ever find these kinds of discussion change? That depends. [/soapbox]
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 12:46:29 GMT -5
I think the point that's been repeatedly made in this conversation is that, while the "sexual" nature of Wonder Woman remains emphasized, the "power" part has not, and therein lies the problem. That was certainly true of the '70s bondage covers. That's my point. DC and the fans are perfectly willing to accept Wonder Woman as a sexual being only as long as she is submissive. If portrayed in her original way, as a sexually powerful being, in charge, it scares both the powers that be as well as the average comic buyer. Good point. You just said that it 5 sentences instead of my 20 minutes on the soapbox.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 20, 2014 12:49:38 GMT -5
Over 90 replies and no one has mentioned a sexy moment.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 13:09:44 GMT -5
Over 90 replies and no one has mentioned a sexy moment. Sorry I don't have a scanner but as my first comment in this thread said ... any moment of bondage is a sexy moment. Especially with the artist back then on WW.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 13:11:44 GMT -5
I think I just grew up in the wrong era for seeing Wonder Woman as sexy. As a child of the '80s, Wonder Woman was part of the trinity -- the authority figures you respect as embodiements of wisdom and righteousness, not the kind of folk you fantasized about. Now Wonder Girl...I could talk about Donna Troy's sex appeal all day long.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 13:14:27 GMT -5
Well there ya go shax, make a thread. If we're talking super hero comics Storm does the same for me.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 13:18:15 GMT -5
Well there ya go shax, make a thread. If we're talking super hero comics Storm does the same for me. What both Donna Troy and Storm have in common, though, is that they are repeatedly depicted as strong, self-reliant, and wise, and their sexiness stems from that. No bad-girl covers and S&M scenarios for them -- at least as they were classically depicted. And really, was Donna's outfit any tighter or more revealing than any other member of the team's? I respect that too.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 13:31:17 GMT -5
I don't know much about Donna Troy but that is the appeal to me with Storm. Plus the white hair on a black gal. Mmmm. The only Storm that never appealed to me visually was Mohawk Storm. I think one of my favorite covers of hers is Uncanny 289 or 290. Her in the rain coming down on her.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 14:03:27 GMT -5
I don't know much about Donna Troy but that is the appeal to me with Storm. Plus the white hair on a black gal. I loved Mohawk Storm -- not sexually -- but man, she was the perfect bad-ass, as well as a logical evolution for the character after all she had endured. [/quote] That was a great cover. Her costume from that era was the best one she ever had.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 14:06:17 GMT -5
But, man, I've taken this thread off track.
BAD administrator!
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Post by gothos on Jul 20, 2014 14:08:21 GMT -5
Over 90 replies and no one has mentioned a sexy moment. Sorry I don't have a scanner but as my first comment in this thread said ... any moment of bondage is a sexy moment. Especially with the artist back then on WW. And I mentioned catfights; doesn't that count? I find it very interesting that about a half-dozen posters have stated that they don't find WW very sexy. Going by the logic in the essay of the aforementioned Ms. Thompson, this should be impossible, because the very act of giving WW an outfit that shows a lot of flesh is supposed to be "automatic objectification." Cause, you know, guys are all robots and we all like exactly the same thing. Now, even as I say that, I know how one can poke holes in it: just because many fans don't find the ink-and-paper WW to be very sexy doesn't mean no fans ever did, or that the editors weren't reaching out to fans who might be turned on by the heroine's skimpy clothes, the same way many had to previous heroines like Sheena. But if anything what we seem to be seeing in the "non-sexy" posts is that WW functions as an idealization-figure who isn't sensual-- which is exactly the phenomenon Thompson asserts to be true only of buff male superheroes. ADDENDUM: I should add that one of the most famous comics-fans, Jules Feiffer, said that he got no buzz from Wonder Woman but liked Sheena just fine.
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Post by gothos on Jul 20, 2014 14:14:21 GMT -5
I think the point that's been repeatedly made in this conversation is that, while the "sexual" nature of Wonder Woman remains emphasized, the "power" part has not, and therein lies the problem. That was certainly true of the '70s bondage covers. That's my point. DC and the fans are perfectly willing to accept Wonder Woman as a sexual being only as long as she is submissive. If portrayed in her original way, as a sexually powerful being, in charge, it scares both the powers that be as well as the average comic buyer. I don't see how this follows from the comics themselves. Marston would repeatedly show WW being bound or otherwise imperilled, and on occasion WW's thoughts would register-- as much as one possibly could in a children's comic-- that she might be a little turned on by it. But she would always turn the tables, break loose, and beat down the evildoers-- which, to Marston, was the essence of her appeal, giving her the agency that female characters so often lacked. So how is this different from the 1970s scenes in which WW is tied to a missile, or about to have a missile slam into her? Was she submissive in these situations? Or did she heroically break free and triumph? And is that still not the current paradigm?
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 20, 2014 15:28:10 GMT -5
I loved Mohawk Storm -- not sexually -- but man, she was the perfect bad-ass, as well as a logical evolution for the character after all she had endured. I have read a few scattered issues in Classic X-Men reprints, but I still liked her as a strong female character. I'm neither Native Americsn nor cared for punk hairstyles on gals. Yes it was very regal and fitting of her personality. I also thought the 90s X-Men cartoon did well with picking the gal that did her voice.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 20, 2014 13:07:39 GMT -5
When Adam Hughes draws her.
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