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Post by kurrgomaul on Jul 19, 2014 14:05:45 GMT -5
hahaa thank you, shaxper.
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Post by gothos on Jul 19, 2014 14:07:51 GMT -5
Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women This statement is patently false. It does happen to male characters but by no means is it equal. There are plenty of examples in the Kelly Thompson article She Has No Head! – Revisiting ‘No, It’s Not Equal’ What Tokkon could have said without fear of contradiction is, "Male characters are objectified and degraded IN THE SAME MANNER as females." Since the very concept of objectification is highly debatable, it's impossible to imagine a situation in which all readers would agree that men and women were getting the exact same amount of objectification over a given period. Kelly Thompson's rant-- I can't call it a survey, because she establishes absolutely no parameters as to how many comics she examined and over what period of time-- is worthless for a lot of reasons, but partly because she comes up with a BS reason to regard all the well-sculpted bodies of the male characters as merely "idealization." I refuted her false opposition of "idealization" and "sexualization" in this 2012 essay. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 19, 2014 14:10:35 GMT -5
What Tokkon could have said without fear of contradiction is, "Male characters are objectified and degraded IN THE SAME MANNER as females." Since the very concept of objectification is highly debatable, it's impossible to imagine a situation in which all readers would agree that men and women were getting the exact same amount of objectification over a given period. Kelly Thompson's rant-- I can't call it a survey, because she establishes absolutely no parameters as to how many comics she examined and over what period of time-- is worthless for a lot of reasons, but partly because she comes up with a BS reason to regard all the well-sculpted bodies of the male characters as merely "idealization." I refuted her false opposition of "idealization" and "sexualization" in this 2012 essay. Worthwhile points, and an impressive essay response, but once again, for the sake of keeping things civil here, let's avoid inflammatory jargon like "worthless" and "BS." While Kelly Thompson is not a member of this forum, the person who provided you with that source, believing it was of value, is. |
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Post by gothos on Jul 19, 2014 14:16:07 GMT -5
that link says they are fans not readers. i know its crappy anecodotal evidence but the girls/women i've met who like comic characters - it's always the films - its anne hathaway as catwoman or who is playing who in the next marvel film. None of them read the comics. if there really were that many female readers, and they were weighing in with their support of female led books then these books would be right at the top of the sales charts. There's only a few to support and the quality of the ones i read is top notch. Instead most of these books will be lucky to last 12 issues. Yes, I tend to think that while the Facebook-based surveys are interesting, they don't indicate that there's a consistent demographic that's supporting comic books, be they mainstream or independent. I'm sure that there has been an upswing of female readers, though, since several convention reports have reported as much-- though these readers may be largely "browsers" of the comics medium, supporting maybe a handful of chosen comics-- SANDMAN, BUFFY, etc-- rather than being invested in a lot of comics in the manner of the "hardcore" reader. |
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Post by gothos on Jul 19, 2014 14:17:29 GMT -5
What Tokkon could have said without fear of contradiction is, "Male characters are objectified and degraded IN THE SAME MANNER as females." Since the very concept of objectification is highly debatable, it's impossible to imagine a situation in which all readers would agree that men and women were getting the exact same amount of objectification over a given period. Kelly Thompson's rant-- I can't call it a survey, because she establishes absolutely no parameters as to how many comics she examined and over what period of time-- is worthless for a lot of reasons, but partly because she comes up with a BS reason to regard all the well-sculpted bodies of the male characters as merely "idealization." I refuted her false opposition of "idealization" and "sexualization" in this 2012 essay. Worthwhile points, and an impressive essay response, but once again, for the sake of keeping things civil here, let's avoid inflammatory jargon like "worthless" and "BS." While Kelly Thompson is not a member of this forum, the person who provided you with that source, believing it was of value, is. Gotcha; 'twas not my intent to offend. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 19, 2014 14:18:09 GMT -5
Gotcha; 'twas not my intent to offend. Of course not. We're all working to get better at this  |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 19, 2014 15:19:47 GMT -5
What Tokkon could have said without fear of contradiction is, "Male characters are objectified and degraded IN THE SAME MANNER as females." Since the very concept of objectification is highly debatable, it's impossible to imagine a situation in which all readers would agree that men and women were getting the exact same amount of objectification over a given period. Kelly Thompson's rant-- I can't call it a survey, because she establishes absolutely no parameters as to how many comics she examined and over what period of time-- is worthless for a lot of reasons, but partly because she comes up with a BS reason to regard all the well-sculpted bodies of the male characters as merely "idealization." I refuted her false opposition of "idealization" and "sexualization" in this 2012 essay. Right. It's impossible to tell whether men or women in comics are more susceptible to being objectified/degraded, but you have to realize that there are most likely more male leading superheroes than female, and thus more instances of said male heroes being shown in peril/bondage situations, at the hands of male and female villains or what have you...in the examples I provided in my first post in this thread, shaxper made it seem like the women were still be objectified for being eye candy (and while he's probably right in regards to the X-Men Xenogenesis cover), but I disagree with him in regards to the other two examples (specially the one with Star Sapphire). Superman is clearly being sexually objectified and no doubt there would be a few female comic readers who would find that sensual. Not everything panders to male interests. |
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Post by Jesse on Jul 19, 2014 18:33:56 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I completely agreed with your sentiment, but "patently false" definitely has a belittling tone to it, though that may not have been your intent. In hindsight I agree and have went back and changed it. What Tokkon could have said without fear of contradiction is, "Male characters are objectified and degraded IN THE SAME MANNER as females. Depends on how you're using the idiom "In the same manner". If it's to say that male characters are put in similar situations I would agree yes just not nearly as frequently. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 19, 2014 19:17:25 GMT -5
In hindsight I agree and have went back and changed it. I greatly appreciate it. Thank you |
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rick
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Post by rick on Jul 20, 2014 11:35:03 GMT -5
All this talk about Wonder Woman's sexiest moments, but so little love for her original role as bondage heroine.  |
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rick
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Post by rick on Jul 20, 2014 11:36:05 GMT -5
Seriously...  |
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rick
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Post by rick on Jul 20, 2014 11:39:45 GMT -5
The original character of Wonder Woman as created by Marston is all about female sexual power. She is meant to be an assertive, sexual woman in control, it was the entire basis of her creation. Yet both DC and the fans run away from this reality out of what hits me as more fear then anything else.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2014 11:51:33 GMT -5
The original character of Wonder Woman as created by Marston is all about female sexual power. She is meant to be an assertive, sexual woman in control, it was the entire basis of her creation. Yet both DC and the fans run away from this reality out of what hits me as more fear then anything else. I think the point that's been repeatedly made in this conversation is that, while the "sexual" nature of Wonder Woman remains emphasized, the "power" part has not, and therein lies the problem. That was certainly true of the '70s bondage covers. |
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rick
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Post by rick on Jul 20, 2014 12:24:47 GMT -5
The original character of Wonder Woman as created by Marston is all about female sexual power. She is meant to be an assertive, sexual woman in control, it was the entire basis of her creation. Yet both DC and the fans run away from this reality out of what hits me as more fear then anything else. I think the point that's been repeatedly made in this conversation is that, while the "sexual" nature of Wonder Woman remains emphasized, the "power" part has not, and therein lies the problem. That was certainly true of the '70s bondage covers. That's my point. DC and the fans are perfectly willing to accept Wonder Woman as a sexual being only as long as she is submissive. If portrayed in her original way, as a sexually powerful being, in charge, it scares both the powers that be as well as the average comic buyer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 12:28:45 GMT -5
We're all working to get better at this Said the poopiehead. |
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