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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 17, 2015 16:29:00 GMT -5
That wolverne is actually alright, interesting composition, even is somehow, there's no snow falling behind him... Again, it's in the details that BWS' work fails for me. I mean I ike some of his 80-90ies bodies, but it really seems it took him quite a while to figure out basic anatomy and perspective. He obviously was pre raphaelite fanboy for way to long, though, which didn't help his growth as he didn't have the technique to draw like that.
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 19, 2015 0:05:32 GMT -5
That wolverne is actually alright, interesting composition, even is somehow, there's no snow falling behind him... Again, it's in the details that BWS' work fails for me. I mean I ike some of his 80-90ies bodies, but it really seems it took him quite a while to figure out basic anatomy and perspective. He obviously was pre raphaelite fanboy for way to long, though, which didn't help his growth as he didn't have the technique to draw like that. I'm a major BWS fan (and a non-artist), so take this as you will. I think with a BWS piece, you have to take the story as a whole, envelope yourself in the atmosphere, and you don't even notice the technical flaws. He's so incredibly gifted at developing "the world" of his stories and the atmosphere of that world that the little flaws don't really stand out from panel to panel. It's a remarkable gift, and one that few artists possess. The story as a whole is the important thing, and those individual panels with their flaws don't really matter except for how they build to a whole story. To give another example, Walt Simonson is my favorite artist, and if you break down Walt's work from panel to panel, you see incredible discrepancies, from wonky anatomy to faces that are little more than impressionist squiggles. Taken as a whole, however, it all seems of a piece, and those minor discrepancies are lost in a masterful expression of dynamism and power. The elongated arms in a given panel don't seem so important when Thor is smashing in Surtur's face or Skurge is protecting the bridge of Hel on his own. The story is what matters, and how it is told is the ultimate function of comic book art. I think that gets lost in most comic book criticism, especially when it comes to the art. Now, if you don't like BWS' work, that's totally cool. To be frank, there's a certain vein of pretension that does run through his work. It's hard to fault him as a storyteller, though. I'd also argue that if we break down the work of those we kinda feel are the greats (from a consensus standpoint), you're going to find those flaws from panel to panel, but that sort of criticism is losing the forest for the trees-- it's not about each individual figure or background, but how they comprise a total story. (Because, believe me, you don't want to see me do this for Jim Lee's work, to cite a BWS acolyte. It's not my thing, but it's effective for a lot more people than what I generally like.)
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 19, 2015 3:12:00 GMT -5
I agree with your analysis regarding Simonson, but i still don't see those supposed flaws, in BWS. Maybe he blinds me completely, but even taking panels apart, they look correct to me, from a technical point of view.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 19, 2015 4:58:07 GMT -5
I like most of the Kree-Skrull War okay, but the ending was a real anti-climax. Granted, there's probably no plausible way for the Avengers to triumph over two giant space armadas, but having Rick Jones spontaneously develop cosmic powers to fix everything was a real let-down. A little bit ex-machina, granted, but as you point out, whatever course of action Thomas would've followed, it would've probably felt that way. One thing I have to grant him, at least, Rick gained those powers as a consequence of the Supreme Intelligence's plans, which where hinted, from issue 92 on. The part about all humanity hiding that power, is what I really disliked.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 19, 2015 5:03:44 GMT -5
Rick Jones is a let down in general. :-) He was a stand-in for the Marvel reader, the one they wanted, someone a little older than what traditionally had been the superhero fan. He "side kicked" for the Hulk, then CA, then CM and finally, he got to vicariously grant the reader, access to superpowers. That's how I read the character, maybe that wasn't Lee's idea at the beginning, but that's how the story developed, and Roy Thomas interpreted it that way, in the Kree/Skrull war.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 19, 2015 8:40:06 GMT -5
I'm a major BWS fan (and a non-artist), so take this as you will. I think with a BWS piece, you have to take the story as a whole, envelope yourself in the atmosphere, and you don't even notice the technical flaws. He's so incredibly gifted at developing "the world" of his stories and the atmosphere of that world that the little flaws don't really stand out from panel to panel. Now, if you don't like BWS' work, that's totally cool. To be frank, there's a certain vein of pretension that does run through his work. It's hard to fault him as a storyteller, though. I'd also argue that if we break down the work of those we kinda feel are the greats (from a consensus standpoint), you're going to find those flaws from panel to panel, but that sort of criticism is losing the forest for the trees-- it's not about each individual figure or background, but how they comprise a total story. (Because, believe me, you don't want to see me do this for Jim Lee's work, to cite a BWS acolyte. It's not my thing, but it's effective for a lot more people than what I generally like.) That I might accept as an explanation, and bear in mind I rcognised his progress : around the mid 80ies (a good 15 years after his pro start), I must admit his figure drawing is tolerable and sometimes even good. I'm a huse huge fan of the studio, Wrightson, Jeff Jones, some of Kaluta, but when I look at their common book, the BWS pages always stick out as eyesore, except with some of his paintings and illustration work : Even if I could single out the first character's thumb drawing, the general qualities of the drawing makes me more tolerant of it as a whole. Yet, with his sequential comic art, it just seems he doesn't bother most of the time, and I stand by every single observation I did on those panels, those are full of flawed artistic shortcuts if not plain anatomic and/or perspective mistakes. So when he later qualified himself as a storyteller, that might indeed be closer to what he is in the comicworld. but the early faults completly ruin the stories for me. You see, you're probably right with Simonson (whom I don't care for that much but at least find interesting), he also features some of the same symptomatic flaws in his figure work, but at least he is mostly consistant with it, as is Jeff Jones or Wrightson! I usualy get the same feeling from BWS that I get from someone like Darrick Robertson, those mistakes PLUS inconsistancies and restricted range of facial figure and expressions, which makes it so different from Simonson. BWS doesn't try to be cartoony, on the contrary, which is probably where this feel of pretention comes from, as he ???often doesn't manages to pull it off. When you look at Sienkiewicz, he only tried to compose those complex and artsy pages when he had reached the technical level to pull it off, you didn't see him try those Stray Toaster pages while he was on FF or even Moon Knight for the matter. And lastly, believe me, I'm all for you going at the same thing with Jim Lee, I'll be in your corner, as I also am appaled when hearing people laud his anatomy (tha guy can't draw a neck for the life of him, especially in his low angles. Ok, I'll admit I might be quite more severe on those points as my mom is an artist, my grand father an art ist lawyer/collector and I studied art as well, so please don't take it personnaly you BWS fans out there, I can understand ones affection for him especially if you grew up to it, I didn't, and on the contrary, grew up to some of his original influences, which makes it very difficult for me to fathom one wouldn't see how flawed his early work was compared to the praise it's getting. I'm just generally surprised I would be alone in finding those panels strikingly flawed... But good call on the storytelling aspect
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Oct 19, 2015 9:41:58 GMT -5
While Im a fan of BWS, its more for his illustrations or covers, than his sequential work. Im no authority, and despite drawing a little couldn't tell one artists "technical" ability from another. I just know what I like. Having reread the early Conan books from the start through to 45 or so recently, I was struck by how little I enjoyed his issues, and by how immediately those by Buscema were more satisfying. That I started reading Conan in the late 70s(around issue 85 or so) may well have coloured my perception of the character, and influenced my preference for creators though. It has seemed to me for some time that his work suits the cover "pose" more than the story, that's no crime, certainly there are plenty out there who are similarly talented, or vice versa suit interiors more than covers. I do however think that some of the panels used to illustrate his misgivings may well have been from very early in his career where he was still quite Kirbyesque, and hadn't settled into his own style.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 19, 2015 10:15:22 GMT -5
Rick Jones is a let down in general. :-) He was a stand-in for the Marvel reader, the one they wanted, someone a little older than what traditionally had been the superhero fan. He "side kicked" for the Hulk, then CA, then CM and finally, he got to vicariously grant the reader, access to superpowers. That's how I read the character, maybe that wasn't Lee's idea at the beginning, but that's how the story developed, and Roy Thomas interpreted it that way, in the Kree/Skrull war. Its not so much his role as his grating personality that ruins most comics that he's in.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Oct 19, 2015 10:57:14 GMT -5
He was a stand-in for the Marvel reader, the one they wanted, someone a little older than what traditionally had been the superhero fan. He "side kicked" for the Hulk, then CA, then CM and finally, he got to vicariously grant the reader, access to superpowers. That's how I read the character, maybe that wasn't Lee's idea at the beginning, but that's how the story developed, and Roy Thomas interpreted it that way, in the Kree/Skrull war. Its not so much his role as his grating personality that ruins most comics that he's in. And his mock hip lingo. Only Snapper Carr and the original Teen Titans were worse.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 19, 2015 11:39:29 GMT -5
Its not so much his role as his grating personality that ruins most comics that he's in. And his mock hip lingo. Only Snapper Carr and the original Teen Titans were worse. That I can even see, and I was but a tyke in that decade. His constant "woe is me" and not in the poetic epic of say Lee's Surfer, but in a complain, complain .... I can't get a gig, I can't pay my rent, I mooch off so-and-so... I have my own financial problems. As Dave Chappelle said in a skit, he's not smoking weed with black people anymore because all they talk about is their trials and tribulations. Which he has his own, and is trying to escape from that. That's why he's smoking. He can smoke with white people cause all they talk about when they're high is other times that they got high.
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