|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jul 16, 2015 9:02:31 GMT -5
I was part of that group, and I think it's been somewhat unfarily maligned. I know that some people felt it was an echo chamber, but there was a plurality of interests within comics that posted both at the YABS and Bendis board forums. I got into loads of arguments about comics at both sites, and I felt that most people involved were debating in good faith, even if I didn't agree with their conclusions. I know bert, Beast of Yucca Flats, and JK Carrier posted there regularly, too, and they've made their way to this site to contribute. I'm sure there are others, too. Sorry, it wasn't my intention to say everyone participating in that sub-forum was the cause of it's demise. More often than not it's the minority that ruin it for the majority. And in no way was Bendis' forum NOT a chaotic mess before Gail and her followers arrived. The two groups together clashed like hot and cold making thunder. Honestly once the Classic Comics forum got the Meanwhile thread, I rarely went anywhere else. Again, apologies for being too general. Your timeline was also a bit off, the YABS forum kept existing for a relatively long time after Gail left for the Bendis forum. Near the end, before it got locked, it was basically unmoderated though. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2015 9:50:41 GMT -5
It's possible that TPTB insisted on all of those exploitive elements. I can't imagine that writers have free reign to refuse to cater to the mostly male audience by leaving out the boob shots that sell these books. I definitely read that BoP issue posted, and thought at the time.. this is Gail Simone??? You're right, of course, that she's not necessarily to blame, but that particular story was pretty much designed that way. |
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 16, 2015 10:48:45 GMT -5
It's possible that TPTB insisted on all of those exploitive elements. I can't imagine that writers have free reign to refuse to cater to the mostly male audience by leaving out the boob shots that sell these books. She's mentioned that before. She wouldn't complain specifically about her artists, but she wasn't always happy with the art on her books for those reasons. Gail has a fair level of popularity, but she's not at a Grant Morrison level where she can select her artists. She was at the mercy of DC, and sometimes she'd get stuck with Ed Benes. |
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 16, 2015 10:51:43 GMT -5
I was part of that group, and I think it's been somewhat unfarily maligned. I know that some people felt it was an echo chamber, but there was a plurality of interests within comics that posted both at the YABS and Bendis board forums. I got into loads of arguments about comics at both sites, and I felt that most people involved were debating in good faith, even if I didn't agree with their conclusions. I know bert, Beast of Yucca Flats, and JK Carrier posted there regularly, too, and they've made their way to this site to contribute. I'm sure there are others, too. Sorry, it wasn't my intention to say everyone participating in that sub-forum was the cause of it's demise. More often than not it's the minority that ruin it for the majority. And in no way was Bendis' forum NOT a chaotic mess before Gail and her followers arrived. The two groups together clashed like hot and cold making thunder. Honestly once the Classic Comics forum got the Meanwhile thread, I rarely went anywhere else. Again, apologies for being too general. That's okay. I just didn't want to see old wounds reopened. One of the great things around here is that we've been able to move forward without dragging up the problems of the past. |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jul 16, 2015 11:09:35 GMT -5
On the work of Gail Simone, could we have some examples of how she's a hypocrite? For example, I am unaware that she ever killed off a female character just to provide a motive for the male hero. I am by no means an expert on Gail Simone. I just like to see examples when someone gets called a hypocrite without a single example being cited for comparison. Her discussions on Yabs involved more than the specific deaths of superheores, and tended to delve into the overall representation of women as weak, accessories to men, sex objects, ect. And she intended to rectify this by making her scantly clad big breasted women make out with eachother in cheesecaky panels in her comics. She became the go-to writer of female lead comics but pretty much pumped out the same exact material male writers did. For example, this is Gail SImone's Batwgirl, complete with really weird posture for all female characters, usually involving spread eagle crotch shots   Now, some will say "Gail isn't the illustrator!" which is true. But she is the writer. A superstar writer, who is putting her name as a feminist voice in the industry on this product. She had the ability to make it what she wanted, especially concerning the depiction of women. Or if she didn't, she had the power to not be involved, and not endorse it with her name on the cover. For sake of argument, here is the new Batgirl  The fact that they had to put that little exclaimer on how to not draw breasts is hilarious, but there it is. Someone took the cheesecake out of a female driven superhero title. This isn't the only example either. Her entire body of work at DC is the same, often times more outrageous, involving giant busted women tied up or making out. I'm just not sure how this is different from the sexist comics written by men that Gail and her crew found so offensive  That's pretty weak, DuPont. You're asserting that the writer is a hypocrite and every single one of your examples of alleged hypocrisy refers to the art.
And there was a lot more to Simone's critiques than the objectification of women. I would guess that Simone was frequently frustrated by the art.
And where are these panels from? It looks like a lot of promotional stuff and covers, with very few images from the stories. If you're trying to indict the writer, I think your critique would be more persuasive if you focused your evidence on material that the writer worked on.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2015 11:44:28 GMT -5
@ Hoosier: The collection of panels with Penguin in them is from a BoP issue.. I don't know the #, but it's definitely from the inside of a comic. The two Batgirl ones are a cover and an opening page splash, IIRC, from the same comic. I agree you could give her a pass for that, but not Swords of Sorrow, which is basically designed to be a crossover with as many boobs in it as possible. I was VERY sad to see that not only Gail Simone, but Marguerite Bennett and G. Willow Wilson were writer for some of the tie ins. Again, you could argue the writer doesn't control the artist, but when a agree to work for a company known for cheesecake doing a crossover with Vamperella, Red Sonja, and Dejah Thoris you have to know the goal. I don't begrudge anyone work, certainly. It does make me said when female creators, who, I'm sure, still have a hard time in the male dominated comics field, participate in continuing bad stereotypes.  |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 16, 2015 12:15:20 GMT -5
Back in the early 90s, Red Sonja was dressed like this for a while:  She wasn't as easily recognizable as when she's wearing a steel bikini, but still... Because it made her more of a woman and less of a walking adolescent boy fantasy , I much preferred that version. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2015 12:20:39 GMT -5
I agree... the steel bikini is a fun visual, but it so ridiculously impractical, it stains one's disbelief.
Funnily enough, Simone got rid of it when she was writing Sonja for... Dynamite? I've only read a couple, but I recall it was gone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jul 16, 2015 13:13:26 GMT -5
I think we're using a definition of "hypocrite" that is so broad that it would apply to anyone who's continued working in an industry that has practices that he or she, as an individual, has any objections to. And that means that it applies to just about everybody who has ever worked for a big company. (Or for a small one, for that matter.)
If that's how we want to use the word "hypocrite," then that's fine. Let's just recognize it for what it is.
A more useful method to prove that a writer is a hypocrite would be to take a close look at the story, and what is going on in the story.
I haven't seen a whole lot of that in this discussion.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958 
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jul 16, 2015 13:41:42 GMT -5
I haven't read much of Simone's Red Sonja series, but in the issues I have read, Sonja is not wearing the bikini in the story even when she is wearing it on the cover.
I'm not quite ready to castigate her for Swords of Sorrow, though I understand the cognitive dissonance given that it's a) supposed to be a crossover of powerful female heroines while b) all of them are designed with incredibly skimpy costumes. I'd like to see what Simone actually does with the characters.
|
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Jul 16, 2015 14:10:32 GMT -5
Like benday-dot, I am a big fan of many things listed here. (Some people don't like Conan? Alan Moore? LOVE AND ROCKETS???) Well, to be honest, I can hardly bring myself to read most mainstream DC/Marvel past 1995, and don't see myself re-reading much post-Crisis stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2015 16:00:30 GMT -5
I haven't read much of Simone's Red Sonja series, but in the issues I have read, Sonja is not wearing the bikini in the story even when she is wearing it on the cover. I'm not quite ready to castigate her for Swords of Sorrow, though I understand the cognitive dissonance given that it's a) supposed to be a crossover of powerful female heroines while b) all of them are designed with incredibly skimpy costumes. I'd like to see what Simone actually does with the characters. I'll admit I didn't read any of it... perhaps that's unfair. But the marketing has been such that I was embarassed to even think about it. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 16, 2015 16:04:27 GMT -5
I think we're using a definition of "hypocrite" that is so broad that it would apply to anyone who's continued working in an industry that has practices that he or she, as an individual, has any objections to. And that means that it applies to just about everybody who has ever worked for a big company. (Or for a small one, for that matter.) If that's how we want to use the word "hypocrite," then that's fine. Let's just recognize it for what it is. A more useful method to prove that a writer is a hypocrite would be to take a close look at the story, and what is going on in the story. I haven't seen a whole lot of that in this discussion. You're right, but there is something to be said for perception. I'm not calling her a hypocrite exactly, but I do think that if you want to be a role model in the field (which I feel she tries to be), you should stay away from stories where the main marketing premise is objectification. |
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jul 16, 2015 16:04:48 GMT -5
I haven't read much of Simone's Red Sonja series, but in the issues I have read, Sonja is not wearing the bikini in the story even when she is wearing it on the cover. I'm not quite ready to castigate her for Swords of Sorrow, though I understand the cognitive dissonance given that it's a) supposed to be a crossover of powerful female heroines while b) all of them are designed with incredibly skimpy costumes. I'd like to see what Simone actually does with the characters. I'll admit I didn't read any of it... perhaps that's unfair. But the marketing has been such that I was embarassed to even think about it. On the flip side, I haven't seen any of the official marketing, but I do have Gail on my Facebook feed, and she's been gushing the whole time about how great it is to write all these badass women together. I don't know if she's just trying to make lemonade or what, but she certainly gives a different view of what the series is about. It still doesn't look like my cup of tea either way, but I'd be curious to see what she's doing with it. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 16:40:23 GMT -5
Back in the early 90s, Red Sonja was dressed like this for a while: She wasn't as easily recognizable as when she's wearing a steel bikini, but still... Because it made her more of a woman and less of a walking adolescent boy fantasy , I much preferred that version. I do enjoy Red Sonja for a while on DYNAMITE COMICS and the work of Gail Simone - but I've haven't read any stories for a good 3-4 months (I was doing some Comics Explorations) and I was shocked to see what you posted here RRaider of seeing her like this picture here. I never knew this at all. Thanks for posting it. She does looks a little more like Xena - The Warrior Princess and I do like this picture very much! |
|
