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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 18:41:49 GMT -5
I would guess that Simone was frequently frustrated by the art. All we have to go by is what she says, and she never said that. Being as outspoken as she is I have to assume if it bothered her she'd have said something. And I didn't just call out the art. Her brand of feminism seemed to be "make them lesbians!" which of course just resulted in scantly clad women in girl-on-girl intimacy. With those cheesecake illustrations. That bottom two page spread, there's no text, but someone WROTE that scene.Also, not sure she's ever worked on a comic that didn't feature a whole lot of cheesecake. For a regular comic writer that's fine. For someone who banks their entire career as a feminist icon, not as much. She's not doing anything that everyone else at DC doesn't do, but that's the point. Her brand is supposed to be that she's bringing something different. But what's different about her comics when compared to the ones written by men?
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Post by berkley on Jul 16, 2015 23:27:47 GMT -5
I like the idea behind Swords of Sorrow, even though none of the three pictured characters are special favourites with me, but I can't get over the artwork. Just not my kind of thing at all. To put it mildly.
Regarding writer Gail Simone, I haven't read much, but overall I have a pretty good impression of her work. I don't think she can be blamed too much for the artwork, given the nature of the business. It's very rare to hear any writer criticise the work of an artist he or she has worked with unless it's someone no longer active. They really can't be expected to say things like that since they have to work with these people, often with little influence on the choice of creative partners and it seems to me it could well be career suicide to burn bridges by acquiring that sort of reputation.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 16, 2015 23:56:32 GMT -5
So ... still no actual detailed critique of Gail Simone's writing that looks at all like evidence of hypocrisy, just vague generalizations such as: "Her brand of feminism seemed to be "make them lesbians!" which of course just resulted in scantly clad women in girl-on-girl intimacy."
I remain unconvinced. A detailed discussion of the actual writing would help.
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Post by sabongero on Jul 17, 2015 0:26:40 GMT -5
On the subject of Gail Simone being a hypocrite, I am not familiar with that subject. However, I do know that I was definitely entertained on her original lengthy run on the Birds of Prey series. Obviously, she had various artists illustrating for her. And the cheesecake illustrations definitely hit the high note when illustrators Ed Benes and Joe Bennett were working on the book with her, especially with Ed Benes. Ed Benes also initially held illustrating duties in the relaunch of Justice League of America after the Infinite Crisis big event. Brad Meltzer was the writer of that JLoA relaunch. Now if you compare the other artists in the Birds of Prey series (including Joe Bennett), Black Canary was illustrated from various angles with the exception of one angle, which is the worm's point of view. In the Justice League of America, you will lose track of counting how many times in the first several issues of how Ed Benes illustrated Black Canary from the worm's point of view, and somewhat of a fetish a multi-illustrated butt shot over and over, such as just viewing the Justice large computer screen. You just have to shake your head.
Getting back to Gail Simone, hey I was just entertained by her initial run on Birds of Prey and her work on Secret Six. I just loved the team chemistry in those books. And entertainment is all I'm looking for in a comic book.
EDIT:
I just wanted to add, that on the last several issues of her initial run on Birds of Prey, she was blessed with a female illustrator in Nichola Scott. Each character of that group was handled real well in the able hands of Nichola Scott. Cheesecake was limited, and her style complemented Gail Simone's writing duties. I particularly loved the drawn quiet moments of the group. And I grew to appreciate Kate (Manhunter), Cinda, and Big Barda as part of that ensemble group.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2015 7:44:35 GMT -5
So ... still no actual detailed critique of Gail Simone's writing that looks at all like evidence of hypocrisy, just vague generalizations such as: "Her brand of feminism seemed to be "make them lesbians!" which of course just resulted in scantly clad women in girl-on-girl intimacy."
I remain unconvinced. A detailed discussion of the actual writing would help.
I'd actually be really interested for someone to do this, but I don't own nearly enough of her comics to be the one to do so... it'd be very interesting indeed!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 17, 2015 10:04:19 GMT -5
I really miss Gail's "You'll all be sorry" column. It was hilarious, and Bongo comics did the right thing in giving her a shot at writing comics.
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Post by Honeystinger on Jul 17, 2015 10:13:34 GMT -5
Crisis on Infinite Earths. I still don't know what the hell was happening. I for one think a scalpel would have been more effective than the wrecking-ball approach DC gave us--minor tweaking, not the reinvention of a whole universe. In fact, I wish comics would let change happen as it does in real life.
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Post by sabongero on Jul 17, 2015 14:57:16 GMT -5
So ... still no actual detailed critique of Gail Simone's writing that looks at all like evidence of hypocrisy, just vague generalizations such as: "Her brand of feminism seemed to be "make them lesbians!" which of course just resulted in scantly clad women in girl-on-girl intimacy."
I remain unconvinced. A detailed discussion of the actual writing would help.
I'd actually be really interested for someone to do this, but I don't own nearly enough of her comics to be the one to do so... it'd be very interesting indeed! That's interesting. If someone does actually have a detailed discussion or even limited discussion on Gail Simone's writing, what would be your suggestion on the direction the person takes that discussion, and how should that person approach talking about Gail Simone's written work?
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Post by sabongero on Jul 17, 2015 14:59:08 GMT -5
Crisis on Infinite Earths. I still don't know what the hell was happening. I for one think a scalpel would have been more effective than the wrecking-ball approach DC gave us--minor tweaking, not the reinvention of a whole universe. In fact, I wish comics would let change happen as it does in real life. I didn't even know she had a column. What was her column like, is it talking about new comic books that came out that week, or did she talk about something else?
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Post by earl on Jul 17, 2015 19:07:33 GMT -5
I thought Secret Six especially when you add in the two lead-in mini series was one of the best titles of the last few years of "Post-Crisis" DC. It was pretty solid DC super hero comics and she was able to tie in some nice previous characters and backgrounds to add to the ones she created. They did a story in Skartaris and it was good. The long running plot about "the card" was good too. It's the type of comic some of the other Bat comics 'should be' even though technically not edited by the Bat office.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 19:25:37 GMT -5
I just don't understand there bashing of Gail Simone here in this thread. I just don't like Secret Six due to the artwork but I do like her writing on it. I feel that her work on Wonder Woman was good, Atom was excellent in some degree, and her work on Red Sonja in Dynamite Comics was good, exciting, and has a charm of it's own. I'm thinking of getting back to her Red Sonja and dropping Aquaman due to the horrible and hideous costume change that occurred in the past few issues.
Some of the bashing that I read here can be justified; but I do enjoy her work on Wonder Woman and I like her work on Batgirl as well. I'm a bit rambling here and I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 19:38:59 GMT -5
So ... still no actual detailed critique of Gail Simone's writing that looks at all like evidence of hypocrisy, just vague generalizations such as: "Her brand of feminism seemed to be "make them lesbians!" which of course just resulted in scantly clad women in girl-on-girl intimacy."
I remain unconvinced. A detailed discussion of the actual writing would help.
I posted two pages of sequential story. There was no dialogue, but that story was written by Gail Simone. Forgive me if I can't bring myself to take this garbage serious enough to give it a detailed critique About all the detail necessary is it's 22 pages of the same exact stuff she complained about when male writers did it.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 17, 2015 19:52:09 GMT -5
Bashing Gail Simone for the artwork that accompanies her stories?
Makes as much sense as praising Fantagraphics as the greatest publisher even though they published the porno Eros Comics line for decades. Or was that uplifting feminist work? i
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jul 17, 2015 20:01:04 GMT -5
I loved Simone's advocacy as a fan, especially her diplomatic approach that invited creators to comment on the issue rather than defend themselves. An angrier, more militant advocate would have just made creators entrench themselves. Gail was amazing at getting a real conversation going.
That being said, I don't think much of Gail as a writer. I felt like she gave just about every female character she wrote the same wry, sarcastic banter, and folks mistook that for rich feminist characterization. I read a lot of Birds of Prey and tried several other things she wrote as well, and I just never saw her doing anything deeper or more innovative than that.
As for what level of involvement she did or did not have in the cheesecake art that accompanied her writing, who can say? If I were Gail, I'd be bothered on the one hand, and wondering if that wouldn't entice more males to read about strong female characters on the other.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 21:12:21 GMT -5
Bashing Gail Simone for the artwork that accompanies her stories?
Makes as much sense as praising Fantagraphics as the greatest publisher even though they published the porno Eros Comics line for decades. Or was that uplifting feminist work? i
Not sure if the talent on the porn comics made their entire career based on them being feminist icons in the industry. This is why I call Gail Simone a hypocrite and not Larry Welz. And as I've repeated several times now, there is a two page spread made up of about a dozen panels on the previous page which is representative of Gail's writing. As far as the art that "accompanies" the stories, how much actual dialogue is in a typical issue of a Gail Simone comic? A couple paragraphs worth? Far less than one of my longer posts for sure. So what exactly am I to critique? That the comic is made up of 22 pages of almost dialogue free money shots where women in thongs punch each other in the face? My critique is exactly that. There is nothing differentiating her work from the rest of the work in the mainstream male dominated misogynistic field she got famous by criticizing. That is the hypocrisy.
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