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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 18, 2015 0:24:13 GMT -5
dupont,
Here's what you should probably be doing: You should take something that Gail Simone actually wrote as a critic and compare it to something she actually wrote as a comic book writer.
Instead, you are taking vague generalizations and paraphrases of Simone's work and comparing it to the art.
So forgive me if I think your method is not making your case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 0:58:13 GMT -5
Comics are a visual medium. The scripts she writes are told through illustration. I'm absolutely positive her script submissions consist of more than what appears in speech bubbles on the page. Now, when a story is told as a series of crotch shots with minimal dialogue, how is that not affecting the story? When more of that bristol board real estate is dedicated to money shots than it is speech bubbles, I find it hard to ignore. Comparing these comics to Eros is also ignoring context. There is a time and place for everything, including erotica. When cracking open an erotic comic I'd expect to see some fanservice. When cracking open an action/adventure comic featuring my favorite childhood superhero and written by an outspoken feminist, I'd expect a measure less ass and dry humping. Assuming Gail is somehow against this depiction of women, and it makes up 100% of her output against her will because she has no control over the direction and mood of her comic, which projects she chooses, and who she works with, I'd say is naive. She's one of the most recognizable names as a writer in mainstream comics. Do you think Alan Moore would have allowed his super hero work to be summed up as a series of upskirts regardless of context? So it's difficult for me to agree to critique Simone's writing, limiting myself to what is found in the speech bubbles, when the entire panel, and the panel following, the entire page, and the entire comic is a representation of her as an author. As far as her words compared to her work, I just did a quick search, and while I've found her say she doesn't have a problem with cheesecake, she's also said on multiple occasions she'd like to see less of it. And yet books bearing her name are putting out more of it, on a consistent enough basis that when I see her name on a book I can almost guarantee there's going to be some cheesecake. As someone who isn't an illustrator, freelances, and works with multiple illustrators, that's interesting. "I don’t need every book to have female creators, I don’t care if there are books that appeal mostly to guy readers. I don’t care if some books have cheesecake. I am fine with all of that. It’s the not allowing anything else that makes me furious." comicsalliance.com/gail-simone-the-comics-alliance-interview-part-one-batgirl-birds-of-prey-and-women-in-refrigerators/ |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jul 18, 2015 1:28:58 GMT -5
I just don't understand there bashing of Gail Simone here in this thread. I just don't like Secret Six due to the artwork but I do like her writing on it. I feel that her work on Wonder Woman was good, Atom was excellent in some degree, and her work on Red Sonja in Dynamite Comics was good, exciting, and has a charm of it's own. I'm thinking of getting back to her Red Sonja and dropping Aquaman due to the horrible and hideous costume change that occurred in the past few issues. Some of the bashing that I read here can be justified; but I do enjoy her work on Wonder Woman and I like her work on Batgirl as well. I'm a bit rambling here and I just wanted to get my 2 cents in. I find that the more she adheres to the standard superhero formula, the more her work suffers. She has a unique voice and she's capable of great things, but her highs have been things like her Deadpool run and Secret Six, where she was allowed to run wild. Her more standard work is kinda average. I think over the past few years she's been shoehorned into a superhero genre that doesn't really want her to tell the kind of stories she's capable of. She's obliquely complained about that as far as Batgirl.
I am looking forward to her Vertigo book, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 1:31:22 GMT -5
I just don't understand there bashing of Gail Simone here in this thread. I just don't like Secret Six due to the artwork but I do like her writing on it. I feel that her work on Wonder Woman was good, Atom was excellent in some degree, and her work on Red Sonja in Dynamite Comics was good, exciting, and has a charm of it's own. I'm thinking of getting back to her Red Sonja and dropping Aquaman due to the horrible and hideous costume change that occurred in the past few issues. Some of the bashing that I read here can be justified; but I do enjoy her work on Wonder Woman and I like her work on Batgirl as well. I'm a bit rambling here and I just wanted to get my 2 cents in. I find that the more she adheres to the standard superhero formula, the more her work suffers. She has a unique voice and she's capable of great things, but her highs have been things like her Deadpool run and Secret Six, where she was allowed to run wild. Her more standard work is kinda average. I think over the past few years she's been shoehorned into a superhero genre that doesn't really want her to tell the kind of stories she's capable of. She's obliquely complained about that as far as Batgirl.
I am looking forward to her Vertigo book, though.
I'm thinking about getting the Vertigo Book too. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 18, 2015 1:42:30 GMT -5
I just see hypocrisy and a double standard exhibited by Mr Dupont
You have his adored publisher Gary Groth who goes on and on about elevating comics and then publishes hard core porn for decades Then you have Gail Simone with the cheesecake illustrations her assigned artists produce which unfortunately is a standard these days with superhero comics
Unless you show me her script that expressly calls for crotch shots in the panels, you're outrage is very suspect |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 2:15:13 GMT -5
I just see hypocrisy and a double standard exhibited by Mr Dupont
You have his adored publisher Gary Groth who goes on and on about elevating comics and then publishes hard core porn for decades Then you have Gail Simone with the cheesecake illustrations her assigned artists produce which unfortunately is a standard these days with superhero comics
Unless you show me her script that expressly calls for crotch shots in the panels, you're outrage is very suspect As I said, there is a time and place for everything, including erotica. An erotica specific imprint with ADULTS ONLY advisories on every cover is where I'd say erotica is appropriate. Also, just because something is erotic does not mean it cannot handle love, sexuality, relationships, and female characters in a mature manner. I don't read Eros comics, but I'll bet my last dime I'll find one that handles the subjects mentioned with more tact and maturity than any given Gail Simone authored issue of Batgirl. I'm not a prude or puritan, erotica doesn't bother me. I find it creepy when it's involving children's heroes in creepy PG-13 dry hump fight scenes, but when it's presented in an adult context with no frills it's completely different. Context. And to add to that, when it's done by someone who isn't claiming to be bringing change to the depiction of women in comics, it is what is is. I'm not judging the content on it's own. I'm judging the content in relation to the person creating it and what their claim to fame is. What I'm asking is, what is Gail Simone providing that male writers aren't? I haven't read every comic on the planet. When I made my choices in that thread, I made them based off comics I've read. And the Fantagraphics comics I have read were consistently top notch. You're comparing the best of Gail Simone's career with the brown paper bag back room stuff Fantagraphics published. Now I'd say that's something. Gail Simone is an A-list writer who heads flagship titles. I'd say as far as classic Fantagraphics is concerned you're better off comparing her to the Hernandez Bros, Stan Sakai, or Dan Clowes. All of whom have won Eisners, interestingly. Now, if Groth or any of his talent had gotten their start in comics as feminist icons who set out to change the depiction of women in comics and then went ahead and depicted them exactly as everyone else did, there would be a double standard. As it is though, I don't see it. On top of that, I find the depiction of women in Love & Rockets, Usagi Yojimbo, and Eightball to be less offensive than in Birds Of Prey, or whatever that Jungle Girl Meets Vampirella thing she referenced in one of the interviews I just skimmed was. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 19, 2015 15:35:22 GMT -5
I do think Simone is leagues better when she's working on her own properties. I like some of her corporate character stuff, but both Killer Princesses and Welcome to Tranquility were orders of magnitude better.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 19, 2015 19:44:35 GMT -5
It's plain to see that Simone sold out and allowed over the top butt shots in her books. I agree with dupont.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 19:57:08 GMT -5
I seem to remember her getting fired off of Batgirl because she tried fighting editorial policy and complained about the art being too cheesecake, and was only rehired when the bad PR shitstorm swamped DC and other creators were looking to bolt in support of Gail, so there's probably a lot going on behind the curtain we know nothing about, but people are free to make assumptions on the little they think they know about the inner workings of DC editorial and business practices.
-M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 19, 2015 20:55:45 GMT -5
I seem to remember her getting fired off of Batgirl because she tried fighting editorial policy and complained about the art being too cheesecake, and was only rehired when the bad PR shitstorm swamped DC and other creators were looking to bolt in support of Gale, so there's probably a lot going on behind the curtain we know nothing about, but people are free to make assumptions on the little they think they know about the inner workings of DC editorial and business practices. -M Yeah, she had a tweat about how she was leaving to do World's Finest Asses starring Nightwing, Booster Gold and Catman that seemed like a snipe at the art on Batgirl. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 22:11:17 GMT -5
I just don't get....  He was big in the 1990s...but...his art just never agreed with me. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 19, 2015 22:49:05 GMT -5
I do think Simone is leagues better when she's working on her own properties. I like some of her corporate character stuff, but both Killer Princesses and Welcome to Tranquility were orders of magnitude better. I forgot Welcome to Tranquility was her... that was pretty good  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 19, 2015 22:51:01 GMT -5
I just don't get.... He was big in the 1990s...but...his art just never agreed with me. LOL. The question is.. are there people out there that DID like his art in the 90s, or was he just really good at hype and marketing? |
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Post by Gene on Jul 20, 2015 0:00:18 GMT -5
I just don't get.... He was big in the 1990s...but...his art just never agreed with me. LOL. The question is.. are there people out there that DID like his art in the 90s, or was he just really good at hype and marketing? I was a kid when he was at the height of his career and I liked his work. Now, I teach art and I appreciate his enthusiasm. |
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Post by starscape on Jul 20, 2015 0:54:46 GMT -5
Well, the Celestial Madonna is absolutely one of my faves and Alan Moore is probably the best writer of the medium. I also love the Killing Joke and give this to non-comic people as an intro. Grant Morrison is both genius and self absorbed fanboy. When he's good...
Can't stand Gaiman. Sandman was unreadable to me. Heck, I can't even read his Marvelman/Miracle man. Given that is up there as potentially my favourite comic run from Moore, that's some going.
I get annoyed by the current switching of identities to increase diversity. Witness the current Captain Britain and the Defenders starring neither Cap nor the Defenders. I'm not against diversity. I collected Power Man. Storm was a main focus on the X-Men. I bought Dazzler. I read every issue of the original Ms Marvel. I bought Captain America mainly for the Falcon. Black Panther was always a thrill. But to say that I should continue reading Thor as the name has stayed the same but the character is now completely different is insane. The very fact that we could have a Hulk v Thor mini-series where a different Hulk v Thor can battle it out for a few issues, yet neither the true Hulk or Thor appears, is patently ridiculous.A gradual change due to story demands is fine (such as Rhodey becoming Iron Man) but crowbarring in over a short time just destroys character appeal. The Scarlet Witch, Black Widow or Cyborg show that non-white, non-male characters can be of interest. It just needs better writing, not treating fans as idiots that are blinded by a name.
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