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Post by tonebone on Jul 24, 2023 10:53:27 GMT -5
My least favorite branch of the internet is the "10 things that didn't age well about..." pop culture lists.
Yes, that comic book from 1985 was written in a different time, adhering to different standards, different expectations of behavior, etc. If it didn't "age well", it's because the reader can't distance themselves from modern societal "norms" and view it through the lenses of history. It's a window into what was, not an affront on modern tastes and sensibilities. If one is not able to read old comic books without finding offense at these societal differences, might I suggest stamp collecting.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 24, 2023 11:10:22 GMT -5
My least favorite branch of the internet is the "10 things that didn't age well about..." pop culture lists. Yes, that comic book from 1985 was written in a different time, adhering to different standards, different expectations of behavior, etc. If it didn't "age well", it's because the reader can't distance themselves from modern societal "norms" and view it through the lenses of history. It's a window into what was, not an affront on modern tastes and sensibilities. If one is not able to read old comic books without finding offense at these societal differences, might I suggest stamp collecting. Quite. "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 24, 2023 12:00:14 GMT -5
I don't know? Rape is pretty bad whenever it happened.
"Sure they lynched that man, but it was a simpler time when lynching wasn't frowned upon".
Some things were never right.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 24, 2023 12:25:34 GMT -5
I don't know? Rape is pretty bad whenever it happened. "Sure they lynched that man, but it was a simpler time when lynching wasn't frowned upon". Some things were never right. Woah, woah, woah...I was referencing what's happening in these two panels, not rape...or lynching (pretty sure Tonebone was too, since he specifically mentioned "that comic book from 1985"). I'm a little surprised and disappointed (and a bit insulted) that you would automatically jump to the assumption that I was excusing rape. To be honest, I don't know much about Starfox or his powers, but a quick look on Wikipedia seems to suggest that the rape allegation storyline originated in ''She-Hulk'' in the mid-2000s, so not all that long ago, relatively speaking. That’s still a fairly modern comic, in my book! So, basically, this sounds like it was some kind of edgy, post-modern take on Starfox's powers by Dan Slott (much like what Brian Bendis did with Purple Man at around the same time in Alias). However, according to Wikipedia, "Starfox was put on trial for sexual assault, accused of using his powers to seduce a happily married woman." Ultimately, although he tried to use his powers to influence the court, it was found conclusively (via a mind probe) that Starfox did not use his powers to influence the woman's decision to sleep with him. Well, at least that's according to Wikipedia.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 24, 2023 13:23:42 GMT -5
Why do you think I was addressing your one word post instead of tonebone's longer one? And why do you assume I was talking about that page, and not the earlier one posted clearly showed date rape?
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,043
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Post by Confessor on Jul 24, 2023 15:05:38 GMT -5
Why do you think I was addressing your one word post instead of tonebone's longer one? And why do you assume I was talking about that page, and not the earlier one posted clearly showed date rape? Well, I assumed you were kinda responding to both. Also not seeing any other panels having been posted other than the one I re-posted above?
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Post by MDG on Jul 24, 2023 16:13:34 GMT -5
I was looking through the Krigstein collection I picked up and was surprised that it didn't have Master Race in it. But then I realized, if there's any story that doesn't need to be made more widely available, it's that one. I mean, I think I have it four or more times. (And at this point, between all of the different editions, I think most run-of-the-mill EC stories have been reprinted at least three times.)
So, that got me thinking: What single comics story has been reprinted the most times? The two-page intro from Batman #1? The first Spider-man story?
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Post by tonebone on Jul 24, 2023 16:18:19 GMT -5
I don't know? Rape is pretty bad whenever it happened. "Sure they lynched that man, but it was a simpler time when lynching wasn't frowned upon". Some things were never right. Woah, woah, woah...I was referencing what's happening in these two panels, not rape...or lynching (pretty sure Tonebone was too, since he specifically mentioned "that comic book from 1985"). I'm a little surprised and disappointed (and a bit insulted) that you would automatically jump to the assumption that I was excusing rape. To be honest, I don't know much about Starfox or his powers, but a quick look on Wikipedia seems to suggest that the rape allegation storyline originated in ''She-Hulk'' in the mid-2000s, so not all that long ago, relatively speaking. That’s still a fairly modern comic, in my book! So, basically, this sounds like it was some kind of edgy, post-modern take on Starfox's powers by Dan Slott (much like what Brian Bendis did with Purple Man at around the same time in Alias). However, according to Wikipedia, "Starfox was put on trial for sexual assault, accused of using his powers to seduce a happily married woman." Ultimately, although he tried to use his powers to influence the court, it was found conclusively (via a mind probe) that Starfox did not use his powers to influence the woman's decision to sleep with him. Well, at least that's according to Wikipedia. Well, yeah, agreed... obviously I was talking about things that are now deemed "problematic" and frowned upon by the new Puritans of Twitter.... Rape, lynching, etc. are horrifying and of course, never acceptable. That being said, racism is also abhorrent, but looking at comics of the past, it's quite easy to stumble across (especially) low-key racism, sexism, etc. .. think The Spirit, Captain Marvel, etc. But I can read those books and enjoy them regardless of the "problematic" aspects. I am able to look at them through the lenses of history and what we have learned and advanced beyond as a society. My argument was that NOT being able to look past those aspects, and avoiding completely that type of material, is not only shortchanging the comics enjoying experience, but turning an unfortunate blind eye to history.
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Post by tonebone on Jul 24, 2023 16:26:22 GMT -5
I don't know? Rape is pretty bad whenever it happened. "Sure they lynched that man, but it was a simpler time when lynching wasn't frowned upon". Some things were never right. Woah, woah, woah...I was referencing what's happening in these two panels, not rape...or lynching (pretty sure Tonebone was too, since he specifically mentioned "that comic book from 1985"). I'm a little surprised and disappointed (and a bit insulted) that you would automatically jump to the assumption that I was excusing rape. To be honest, I don't know much about Starfox or his powers, but a quick look on Wikipedia seems to suggest that the rape allegation storyline originated in ''She-Hulk'' in the mid-2000s, so not all that long ago, relatively speaking. That’s still a fairly modern comic, in my book! So, basically, this sounds like it was some kind of edgy, post-modern take on Starfox's powers by Dan Slott (much like what Brian Bendis did with Purple Man at around the same time in Alias). However, according to Wikipedia, "Starfox was put on trial for sexual assault, accused of using his powers to seduce a happily married woman." Ultimately, although he tried to use his powers to influence the court, it was found conclusively (via a mind probe) that Starfox did not use his powers to influence the woman's decision to sleep with him. Well, at least that's according to Wikipedia. AND ANOTHER THING... the "Starfox was put on trial..." business was another comics writer (Dan Sloth I presume), looking back at Starfox's history and finding "problematic" issues with his behavior (the fruits of better writers' labors), and putting him on trial. It's sarcastic and Ironic! So Meta!..... so lazy. No better than the not-much-better-than-A.I. generated "didn't age well" lists I wrote about.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 24, 2023 16:44:17 GMT -5
I was looking through the Krigstein collection I picked up and was surprised that it didn't have Master Race in it. But then I realized, if there's any story that doesn't need to be made more widely available, it's that one. I mean, I think I have it four or more times. (And at this point, between all of the different editions, I think most run-of-the-mill EC stories have been reprinted at least three times.) So, that got me thinking: What single comics story has been reprinted the most times? The two-page intro from Batman #1? The first Spider-man story? Jack Chick"s Dark Dungeon?
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Post by zaku on Jul 24, 2023 17:31:14 GMT -5
Is Starfox a problematic character? Has he used his powers to date rape women ? Divisive argument... Like I said 😅
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 24, 2023 18:35:56 GMT -5
It’s a good subject. Should we only talk about things we all agree on ? I never saw Starfox use his powers on any of the female Avengers that were married. Him and She Hulk was consensual, as far as I remember. His history from the early Starlin books has him as a warrior and a womanizer. The feel good power only started in the Stern Avengers run.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 24, 2023 21:43:31 GMT -5
So, that got me thinking: What single comics story has been reprinted the most times? The two-page intro from Batman #1? The first Spider-man story? Action Comics #1. Widely considered the most important & influential comic ever published, its been the subject of endless reprints as a comic, tabloid ("Treasury Edition"), hardback, TPB, in comic history books and promotional supplements. If a single comic book story has been reprinted more times than Action Comics #1, it would be interesting to know which one that is.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 24, 2023 21:58:06 GMT -5
I have read all of Starlin's stuff and Eros, aka Starfox, was mainly just Thanos' brother and the "good son." he barely enters into things, under Starlin; but, he is a contrast to Thanos. Mentor is, essentially, Zeus, while Thanos is Thanatos, the Greek manifestation of Death. Eros is God of Love and Eros/Starfox, who is about the ultimate lifeforce, love, is the opposite of Thanos, which is about death. The first edition of OHOTMU attributes no other pwoers than those of all Titans, who were retconned into being an offshoot of the Eternals, but lacking their cosmic life force, so they aren't immortal (or near enough).
The 1985 Deluxe update now has Starfox as emitting waves of energy that stimulate the pleasure centers of others, but it is a constant emission, not something he turns on and off. If he concentrates, he can magnify it. He does not mind control a person; but, rather, his field stimulates pleasure centers. His personality is that of a womanizer and his given name, Eros, was chosen, at the age of 5, based on his interest in the opposite sex.
So, as created, he had no powers and therefore no ability to control or manipulate others. As developed in his early Avengers appearances, he has a field which stimulates people's pleasure centers, but does not control their minds. At best he would make them feel euphoric, by releasing endorphins. Is that mind control? In the abstract, is that different than "charisma" or a "magnetic personality?" It sounds more like those early adventures feature people relaxing their inhibitions around him, much like the Greek and Roman myths of Eros/Cupid, causing people to "fall in love" with his arrows. In folkloric traditions, we often see creatures who seem to hold sway over women and men. Circe and Odysseus, the various human lovers of Zeus, the "glamour" of the faeries. Charisma was originally said to be a divine gift and it had power to influence people, both romantically and in leadership roles. Myths and folklore feature tales of young women falling "under the spell" of some figure; but, as we see with historical witch trials, is it just an excuse to say they were under the supernatural influence, rather than to admit that women had amorous interests, just as men do? The nature of the parable told often varies, according to whether the one doing the influencing is an impediment or an aid.
If you ask me, what you have, in Starfox, is a character who started out as being a contrast to Thanos, who was shown to have a lot of lovers around, which when someone decided to do something with him, they played up and made an effect of his being, but not a conscious manipulation. At best, he can increase it, but not control people like puppets. That gets pushed into him actively manipulating people. Kind of like how Hank Pym goes from being lost in his work, to suffering breakdowns, to split personalities, to further breakdowns, to physically assaulting his wife, in the ehat of anger, to being a serial abuser, by the time we get to Ultimates. Some writers want to deal in the positive and some in the negative and don't have a problem of reducing a more dimensional character down to one aspect of their past and magnify it into their whole being.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 25, 2023 5:20:20 GMT -5
I have read all of Starlin's stuff and Eros, aka Starfox, was mainly just Thanos' brother and the "good son." he barely enters into things, under Starlin; but, he is a contrast to Thanos. Mentor is, essentially, Zeus, while Thanos is Thanatos, the Greek manifestation of Death. Eros is God of Love and Eros/Starfox, who is about the ultimate lifeforce, love, is the opposite of Thanos, which is about death. The first edition of OHOTMU attributes no other pwoers than those of all Titans, who were retconned into being an offshoot of the Eternals, but lacking their cosmic life force, so they aren't immortal (or near enough). The 1985 Deluxe update now has Starfox as emitting waves of energy that stimulate the pleasure centers of others, but it is a constant emission, not something he turns on and off. If he concentrates, he can magnify it. He does not mind control a person; but, rather, his field stimulates pleasure centers. His personality is that of a womanizer and his given name, Eros, was chosen, at the age of 5, based on his interest in the opposite sex. So, as created, he had no powers and therefore no ability to control or manipulate others. As developed in his early Avengers appearances, he has a field which stimulates people's pleasure centers, but does not control their minds. At best he would make them feel euphoric, by releasing endorphins. Is that mind control? In the abstract, is that different than "charisma" or a "magnetic personality?" It sounds more like those early adventures feature people relaxing their inhibitions around him, much like the Greek and Roman myths of Eros/Cupid, causing people to "fall in love" with his arrows. In folkloric traditions, we often see creatures who seem to hold sway over women and men. Circe and Odysseus, the various human lovers of Zeus, the "glamour" of the faeries. Charisma was originally said to be a divine gift and it had power to influence people, both romantically and in leadership roles. Myths and folklore feature tales of young women falling "under the spell" of some figure; but, as we see with historical witch trials, is it just an excuse to say they were under the supernatural influence, rather than to admit that women had amorous interests, just as men do? The nature of the parable told often varies, according to whether the one doing the influencing is an impediment or an aid. If you ask me, what you have, in Starfox, is a character who started out as being a contrast to Thanos, who was shown to have a lot of lovers around, which when someone decided to do something with him, they played up and made an effect of his being, but not a conscious manipulation. At best, he can increase it, but not control people like puppets. That gets pushed into him actively manipulating people. Kind of like how Hank Pym goes from being lost in his work, to suffering breakdowns, to split personalities, to further breakdowns, to physically assaulting his wife, in the ehat of anger, to being a serial abuser, by the time we get to Ultimates. Some writers want to deal in the positive and some in the negative and don't have a problem of reducing a more dimensional character down to one aspect of their past and magnify it into their whole being. Well said. The only reason this is a subject at all, is that the She Hulk story that has him under trial for date rape. Where he is cleared , I Might add.
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