shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,701
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Post by shaxper on Sept 10, 2023 7:31:03 GMT -5
The months preceding the "official relaunchs" weren't really that strange to me, you could still kind of accept various storylines on a month to month basis even though you knew there had been this other big story event that had implications not fully realized yet. We weren't so coded for "continuity compliance" back then if you will (at least I wasn't). In terms of the "reintroductions" themselves, it was actually a really exciting time initially. Sometimes when I talk about my general dislike for how the post-Crisis DC world evolved, I need to remember to qualify that it wasn't an immediate thing. Byrne and Perez were of course very much at the top of their respective games and coming off massively successful runs on their respective books, so the Superman and Wonder Woman titles really got my attention. The Man of Steel reboot mini already featured one of my favorite characters of all time with Superman, and besides the Byrne creative factor, I kind of liked the premise of a less powerful Kal. Not so much because I subscribed to the notion that his prior power levels led to inherently boring stories, but rather it seemed like a nod to the Golden Age earliest iteration which I had a good deal of affinity for. It was a fun read at the time, even the dual covers for the first issue seemed special (it was of course much more of a rarity back then). Wonder Woman was on the other end of the spectrum for me. While I enjoyed her as a supporting character for the Super Friends (first exposure as a tot) and then the JLA proper, I never had any interest in reading her actual title. Her relaunch was especially exciting for me, not only the gorgeous Perez art, but how it tapped more into the mythological aspects of her background. However, those particular Batman issues were not terribly exciting for me to be honest, I thought Magpie on that one cover was not very compelling. You have to remember, we had that same year just come off the Dark Knight Returns and the bar was crazy high in terms of Batman storytelling. But fast forward a few short months to Batman #404 and the start of Year One, and oh my, THAT was rather exciting (the Mazzucchelli art alone was so epic). Ultimately I felt the excitement fizzle with a lot of what followed for DC, so much so that I ultimately developed a “Crisis was bad!” perspective that was a combination of a general lack of continued enthusiasm and a growing awareness of and nostalgia for what had been lost from the prior era. But again I do remember my collecting/reading enjoyment that year (along with knowing a lot of other fellow comic book fans at the local comic book shops and school who shared in the excitement of everything going on). Thank you, this was very interesting! However, understanding when post-Crisis Batman truly begins is a matter of debate. Our shaxper , for example, has it starting with Batman #426 :-) It was purposefully restarted three times: once in Batman #408, once in Batman #404, and Batman #392. For an explanation on those, check out the upcoming episode of CCF In-Depth launching this week No one at DC believes or ever believed Batman #426 was the start of the Post-Crisis. Only in hindsight do I feel that it makes the most sense, and I explain why here.
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Post by spoon on Sept 13, 2023 23:00:47 GMT -5
However, I think there were DC comics where it seemed like Crisis hadn't even happened (aside from the obligatory Cross-Overs). I'm thinking for example Green Lantern or The Atom. The idea that "it seemed like Crisi hadn't even happened" in Green Lantern depends on what you mean. That's true in the sense that the Hal Jordan's backstory and that of his longtime supporting cast weren't overwritten with an altered version. For example, I can't think of a GL equivalent of Wonder Woman coming to "man's world" at a later time and her past membership with the JLA being wiped out. Or Lex Luthor changing from a fighting scientist to a hefty billionaire mastermind who has minions do his dirty work. Or Jason Todd's backstory changing from blonde circus acrobat to brunette street thief. On the hand, GL was a title where it was more like it actually happened in the sense that members of the Corps remembered the Crisis. It wasn't like those books where it was as if the protagonists' pre-Crisis existences never happened. There was some explanation about the members of the Corps particularly recalling events due to their involvement in fighting it. Ch'p decides to go to Earth because his wife no longer remembers him in the post-Crisis reality. So it's like memory of pre-Crisis reality was wiped away for that GL's wife, but not for the GL Ch'p himself. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't remember the gap between the end of Crisis and these reboots being so long. But I'll share a couple of things I remember. I remember having the impression that Wonder Woman being turned to clay was only a temporary condition, and knowing it wasn't a "real" death like Flash or Supergirl. I also Batman #408 (the revamped introduction of Jason Todd) as the point when it first felt like post-Crisis Batman was a new thing rather than just a continuation of what happened before. I should note, though, that I hadn't read that many issues of Batman before then, so I wasn't tracing an issue-by-issue evolution in detail.
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Post by zaku on Sept 14, 2023 1:28:08 GMT -5
However, I think there were DC comics where it seemed like Crisis hadn't even happened (aside from the obligatory Cross-Overs). I'm thinking for example Green Lantern or The Atom. The idea that "it seemed like Crisi hadn't even happened" in Green Lantern depends on what you mean. That's true in the sense that the Hal Jordan's backstory and that of his longtime supporting cast weren't overwritten with an altered version. For example, I can't think of a GL equivalent of Wonder Woman coming to "man's world" at a later time and her past membership with the JLA being wiped out. Or Lex Luthor changing from a fighting scientist to a hefty billionaire mastermind who has minions do his dirty work. Or Jason Todd's backstory changing from blonde circus acrobat to brunette street thief. On the hand, GL was a title where it was more like it actually happened in the sense that members of the Corps remembered the Crisis. It wasn't like those books where it was as if the protagonists' pre-Crisis existences never happened. There was some explanation about the members of the Corps particularly recalling events due to their involvement in fighting it. Ch'p decides to go to Earth because his wife no longer remembers him in the post-Crisis reality. So it's like memory of pre-Crisis reality was wiped away for that GL's wife, but not for the GL Ch'p himself. Well, you are right. The problem is that we use the word "Crisis" interchangeably between the maxi-event itself and the entire series of changes in continuity made to the characters. We should be more specific about what we mean. What I meant is that obviously the event happened for the characters that revolve around Green Lantern, but the retroactive changes to the continuity are practically nothing compared to a Batman (without wanting to consider the total reboots of Superman and Wonder Woman). And even those changes that have actually taken place are absolutely average of what happened before Crisis. Sometimes we forget it, but it's not like the continuity of Earth-1 before Crisis was perfect and written in stone. There were constantly little retcons to the characters' stories. I remember having the impression that Wonder Woman being turned to clay was only a temporary condition, and knowing it wasn't a "real" death like Flash or Supergirl. Well, in Crisis they made a big deal of Supergirl and Flash's deaths, so it makes sense that readers thought that Wonder Woman's wasn't a "real" one I think it wasn't even the writer's intention to "trick" the readers: "AH AH! You think she's dead, but... YOU ARE WRONG!!!". I'm just curious why they think it was needed to "kill" her in story. She wasn't the only character who was getting "rebooted". By the way, I've another character almost untouched by Crisis: The Atom!!!
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 14, 2023 5:55:26 GMT -5
You're right about Batman and the Green lantern series. But they didn't seem to have continuity problems that involved the multiple earths device. I don't know why they felt they had to change Jason Todds origin story though , other than it was a copy of Graysons origin.
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Post by zaku on Sept 14, 2023 11:04:44 GMT -5
You're right about Batman and the Green lantern series. But they didn't seem to have continuity problems that involved the multiple earths device. I don't know why they felt they had to change Jason Todds origin story though , other than it was a copy of Graysons origin. From what I remember, the problem with Jason Todd was that he was basically a clone of Dick Grayson. Furthermore, Crisis was also an opportunity to create a Batman closer to Miller's version given that DKR had been an incredible success. If they wanted to attract more readers, it was better not to be burdened by the character's already existing continuity. Remember then, that unlike other characters, the authors basically considered a good part of Batman's Golden Age stories to be canon (they didn't believe in all that Earth-1/Earth-2 stuff)! Here we were talking about 50 years of character continuity! As for Green Lantern, I haven't read much about it, but it seems more like an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" situation to me. There probably weren't even many ideas on how to relaunch the character. The closest thing they had to a major retcon in those years was "Emerald Dawn", and from what I know a lot of the stuff established there has been ignored in the years since.
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Post by Jesse on Sept 14, 2023 17:22:07 GMT -5
Is the Larry Hama Wolverine run worth reading?
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Post by Dizzy D on Sept 15, 2023 2:10:12 GMT -5
Is the Larry Hama Wolverine run worth reading?
It's very long, so the quality has some deep deep dips, but there are various stories I enjoyed. Overall I would say it's not worth seeking out, there are many better comic series around.
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Post by spoon on Sept 15, 2023 23:11:49 GMT -5
Is the Larry Hama Wolverine run worth reading? It depends on one's own taste in comics. I'm more or less on the same page as Dizzy D, but I did feel enough nostalgia to buy the Epic Collection that reprinted the beginning of Hama's run. When the run was originally published, I read from the start (#31) to around #75, which is only about halfway into the run. My twin brother was actually the one who started buying it, but I kept on going when he mostly stopped buying comics. I was an X-Men addict at the time. If you're a big Wolverine you might like it, but otherwise you'll probably get Wolverine fatigue. It's got a lot of the Wolverine getting really beat up and Wolverine in turn slicing up a bunch of thugs that is probably more appealing when you're 12 years old. My recollection is that the earlier issues were better. It tends to tie in more with other X-books over time, whereas the pre-Hama issues were mostly autonomous.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 17, 2023 5:31:10 GMT -5
Nothing that Larry Hama has ever written jumps out at me as something that has to be read. No insult to him, it's just that the books he has been involved with were never my cup of tea. He did X books, toy related properties and the like. The only books that I own that he wrote were the Avengers comics that are north of #300. I find many of those forgettable.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,042
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2023 6:09:36 GMT -5
Nothing that Larry Hama has ever written jumps out at me as something that has to be read. No insult to him, it's just that the books he has been involved with were never my cup of tea. He did X books, toy related properties and the like. The only books that I own that he wrote were the Avengers comics that are north of #300. I find many of those forgettable. I really only know him for writing the story in issue #48 of Star Wars, which is an issue that sharply divides opinion among fans of the series. Myself, I've always found it a fairly mediocre story and one that is unnecessarily convoluted to boot. I'm not even really convinced the plot makes much sense. I've seen other reviewers online who share this view. On the other hand, I've also seen it come up at least twice in "Top Ten Best Issues" lists of Marvel's original Star Wars series. So, maybe his writing is generally a bit "Marmite"?
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Post by commond on Sept 17, 2023 8:05:45 GMT -5
The silent issue of GI Joe is something that should be read by all comic book fans. He did a sequel of sorts to it years later, but it's not as good.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 17, 2023 19:48:13 GMT -5
The silent issue of GI Joe is something that should be read by all comic book fans. He did a sequel of sorts to it years later, but it's not as good. Yeah; but that has Hama doing breakdowns of his own plot, vs writing for others, which is usually going to be a stronger work. Hama, to me, is a frustrated artist, who turned to writing and editing, but was not a standout there. He's not bad; but he's more a steady workhorse than a stallion. GI JOE was probably the project that was most suited to his talents, but it is compromised by the needs of Hasbro. I would say editor was the role that most suited him, of the three (writer, artist or editor).
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 17, 2023 20:01:57 GMT -5
I like Hama's art, and it was why I had him sign my Essential Iron Fist. I've never read anything he's written (or did I read G.I. Joe #1? I forget).
Cei-U! I summon the hole in my knowledge!
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Post by foxley on Sept 18, 2023 3:04:02 GMT -5
I have an original Hama sketch of Lady Jaye.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 18, 2023 21:00:45 GMT -5
I liked his art and he worked well with Steve Leialoha, who did finishes on the silent GI JOE comic, that is mentioned above (and I will be reviewing soon).
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