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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Sept 9, 2015 6:24:34 GMT -5
You most certainly are right. You are refering to the issue John seduced Slag  I was confused because indeed, that one came right after Ennis' run and Sean Phillips drew a few Delano penned issues around the Family man arc, before Ennis even took over. And then he did that laudromat one in the middle of Ennis' run (one of my fave Hellblazer issue ever, and the one which got me to start enjoying Sean Phillips art as I remember I was drawing and copying some of it and realized doing so how good Phillips actually is) It's interesting how long writers stayed on the title. It's as if Karen Berger had decided that the core publishing concept of the book was you ad a writer stay on it for about 40 issues. It was the case with Delano, Jenkins, Ennis, Carey and Milligan. It would probably also have been the case of Ellis if he didn't have a fit on his more then average story that got pulled. |
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Post by Warmonger on Sept 25, 2015 20:15:48 GMT -5
Knew I would end up shaking up my list.
Another Top 10
1. Swamp Thing (Alan Moore/Stephen Bissette)
2. Conan the Barbarian & SSOC (Roy Thomas/John Buscema)
3. The Punisher (Garth Ennis/Various)
4. Uncanny X-Men (Chris Claremont/John Byrne)
5. Moon Knight (Doug Moench/Bill Sienkiewicz)
6. Daredevil (Frank Miller/Klaus Janson)
7. Batman (Doug Moench/Jim Aparo)
8. Avengers (Roy Thomas/John Buscema)
9. Man-Thing (Steve Gerber/Mike Ploog)
10. Sandman (Neil Gaiman/Various)
Honorable Mention
Watchmen (Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons)
Hitman (Garth Ennis/John McCrea)
Doom Patrol (Grant Morrison/Richard Case)
The Punisher (Mike Baron/Various)
Foolkiller (Steve Gerber/J.J. Birch)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 23:15:00 GMT -5
1. Fantastic Four - Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
2. Amazing Spider-Man - Stan Lee & Steve Ditko
3. Amazing Spider-Man - Stan Lee & John Romita Sr.
4. Uncanny X-Men - Chris Claremont & John Byrne
5. Fantastic Four - John Byrne
6. New Teen Titans - Marv Wolfman & George Perez
7. Detective Comics - Steve Englehart & Marshall Rogers
8. Daredevil - Stan Lee & Gene Colan
9. Avengers - Kurt Busiek & George Perez
10. Justice League of America - Gardner Fox & Mike Sekowsky
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Post by berkley on Sept 25, 2015 23:19:52 GMT -5
I don't know if I can pare it down to five, but here are some of mine:
Doctor Strange (Englehart/Brunner/Colan)
Man-Thing (Gerber)
Fantastic Four (Kirby/Lee)
Thor (Kirby/Lee)
Doctor Strange (Ditko/Lee)
Master of Kung Fu (Moench/Gulacy/Zeck/Day)
Tomb of Dracula (Wolfman/Colan)
Kirby's New Gods and Eternals would be there but I don't think of them as runs within ongoing series, but rather self-contained stories that would have had a beginning, middle, and end, but were interrupted before completion.
If there are individual runs within the long-running Love and Rockets I would include something from that as well - Gilbert Hernandez's "Poison River" for example.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 26, 2015 6:01:56 GMT -5
I generally agree on all counts (Except about Galactus, which is stone brilliant on every level) Except it really isn't. The basic idea is sound but I have several major objections (and one trivial one) to the Galactus Trilogy. 1. The structure. It starts midway through #48 and ends midway through #50, making it a "trilogy" that actually only makes up two issues' worth of pages. While it does create that sense of spontaneity I love about Kirby, this awkward pacing annoys me. 2. The FF are basically bystanders in their own story. Everything significant they accomplish is because the Watcher hands it to them and it's Alicia who turns the Silver Surfer against Galactus. 3. The miraculous coincidence at the heart of the plot: out of all the rooftops in New York the Surfer could land on, he just happens to land on Alicia's. Many years ago, I wrote a spec script for What If? asking what would've happened if Surfy had landed in Yancy Street instead. It didn't end well for a whole lot of folks. 4. The deus ex machina ending. Kirby's endings often suck, and the Ultimate Nullifier is a major offender. 5. The big G on the chest of the Big G. Yeah, yeah, I know somebody later explained it away as an alien glyph that coincidentally resembles our letter. But it adds an unwelcome and tonally inappropriate whiff of cheese to the proceedings. Not to say there isn't a lot to like about the trilogy. It's chockful of great individual scenes, there's some terrific character moments and, of course, Galactus and the Surfer are conceptually (and visually) amazing. I just don't see it as the apogee of the Lee/Kirby collaboration others do (as far as I'm concerned, they peaked with Avengers #3-4). Cei-U! I summon the seriously flawed masterpiece! You bring up nice points but it was great for other reasons. The concept of the end go the world is one that many people contemplate and this arc brought it to the Marvel Universe. Galactus was an unstoppable force which mankind had to reckon with. Even the FF was helpless and thus were relegated to innocent bystander status with the rest of us. The story is the story as well as plot points like where he landed. You might as well nit pick any occurrence in ANY story. Why did the Burglar shoot Uncle Ben instead of another person ? This story introduced 2 of the , arguably, most important characters introduced into the Marvel Universe in the Surfer and Galactus. It has it's place in one of the greatest story arcs in comics. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 26, 2015 8:51:33 GMT -5
You bring up nice points but it was great for other reasons. The concept of the end go the world is one that many people contemplate and this arc brought it to the Marvel Universe. Galactus was an unstoppable force which mankind had to reckon with. As I said, it has its good points, not least of which is the sheer brilliance of the Galactus concept. Nonsense. By that yardstick, every story is immune to criticism. My gripes about the Galactus trilogy are very specific to that story. Nor do I agree with your comparison. The irony of the burglar killing Uncle Ben is central to Spidey's origin. The use of Alicia to turn the Surfer against Big G is not. Any character of similar moral fiber would do. Ah well, I've always acknowledged that my opinion about this isn't a popular one. Cei-U! I stick to my guns! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 26, 2015 21:39:41 GMT -5
Nonsense. By that yardstick, every story is immune to criticism. My gripes about the Galactus trilogy are very specific to that story. Nor do I agree with your comparison. The irony of the burglar killing Uncle Ben is central to Spidey's origin. The use of Alicia to turn the Surfer against Big G is not. Any character of similar moral fiber would do. Ah well, I've always acknowledged that my opinion about this isn't a popular one. Cei-U! I stick to my guns! Alicia being the person to win The Surfers confidence was instrumental to the next story. Remember, At the end of #50 Alicia comes to the roof top and runs past Ben to talk to the Surfer , thus making Ben feel rejected and A easy target to the villain who steals his ID in "This man, This Monster". |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Sept 27, 2015 22:01:21 GMT -5
Except it really isn't. The basic idea is sound but I have several major objections (and one trivial one) to the Galactus Trilogy. 1. The structure. It starts midway through #48 and ends midway through #50, making it a "trilogy" that actually only makes up two issues' worth of pages. While it does create that sense of spontaneity I love about Kirby, this awkward pacing annoys me. 2. The FF are basically bystanders in their own story. Everything significant they accomplish is because the Watcher hands it to them and it's Alicia who turns the Silver Surfer against Galactus. 3. The miraculous coincidence at the heart of the plot: out of all the rooftops in New York the Surfer could land on, he just happens to land on Alicia's. Many years ago, I wrote a spec script for What If? asking what would've happened if Surfy had landed in Yancy Street instead. It didn't end well for a whole lot of folks. 4. The deus ex machina ending. Kirby's endings often suck, and the Ultimate Nullifier is a major offender. 5. The big G on the chest of the Big G. Yeah, yeah, I know somebody later explained it away as an alien glyph that coincidentally resembles our letter. But it adds an unwelcome and tonally inappropriate whiff of cheese to the proceedings. Not to say there isn't a lot to like about the trilogy. It's chockful of great individual scenes, there's some terrific character moments and, of course, Galactus and the Surfer are conceptually (and visually) amazing. I just don't see it as the apogee of the Lee/Kirby collaboration others do (as far as I'm concerned, they peaked with Avengers #3-4). Cei-U! I summon the seriously flawed masterpiece! You bring up nice points but it was great for other reasons. The concept of the end go the world is one that many people contemplate and this arc brought it to the Marvel Universe. Galactus was an unstoppable force which mankind had to reckon with. Even the FF was helpless and thus were relegated to innocent bystander status with the rest of us. The story is the story as well as plot points like where he landed. You might as well nit pick any occurrence in ANY story. Why did the Burglar shoot Uncle Ben instead of another person ? This story introduced 2 of the , arguably, most important characters introduced into the Marvel Universe in the Surfer and Galactus. It has it's place in one of the greatest story arcs in comics. Agreed, and I'd add that the Watcher didn't just hand over the Ultimate Nullifier to the team. The Human Torch had to go get it, which meant he had to fly around a crazy Kirbydimension and deal with things beyond human imagination - Which figuratively went hand in hand with the "Torch goes off to college" boy-becoming-man subplot that was featured in the surrounding issues. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 27, 2015 22:22:17 GMT -5
The Ultimate Nullifier is still a very problematic method of resolving the plot: my memory says that Reed Richards basically holds the entire universe to ransom, threatening to destroy the unvierse if Galactus doesn't leave Earth - the ultimate terrorist act, you might say.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 28, 2015 6:05:46 GMT -5
The Ultimate Nullifier is still a very problematic method of resolving the plot: my memory says that Reed Richards basically holds the entire universe to ransom, threatening to destroy the unvierse if Galactus doesn't leave Earth - the ultimate terrorist act, you might say. I wonder how you can reconcile his saving Galactus in FF #244 with his willingness to decimate the entire Universe in this instance? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 10:46:55 GMT -5
1. Justice League of America (from around 1976-1983)
2. Teen Titans (1966-1978)
3. Superboy (Geoff Johns and Francis Manapul/Jeff Lemire and Pier Gallo)
4. Legion of Super Heroes (Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen)
5. Detective Comics (Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers)
Honorable mentions
New Teen Titans (Wolfman/Perez)
X-Men (Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne)
Avengers (Busiek/Waid/Perez)
Superman (Byrne)
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Post by Phil Maurice on Sept 28, 2015 11:00:50 GMT -5
The Ultimate Nullifier is still a very problematic method of resolving the plot. . . How do we know that the Ultimate Nullifier even works? Was there a Penultimate Nullifier that was used for testing purposes? |
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 2, 2015 2:30:35 GMT -5
I feel both the plotting/writing and art slip a bit in those last ten issues. Unlike a lot of folks, I'm not especially enamored of the Master Planner arc, the reputation of which is based on one really great scene--Spidey lifting the machinery he's trapped under-- That's also my take on that storyline, but I strongly disagree about issue thirty. The only thing that was slipping by then, was Stan's involvement. |
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Post by berkley on Oct 2, 2015 2:59:52 GMT -5
The Ultimate Nullifier is still a very problematic method of resolving the plot: my memory says that Reed Richards basically holds the entire universe to ransom, threatening to destroy the unvierse if Galactus doesn't leave Earth - the ultimate terrorist act, you might say. I wonder how you can reconcile his saving Galactus in FF #244 with his willingness to decimate the entire Universe in this instance? Well, I suppose I'd have to say that I don't accept the premise of the question - that the Reed Richards of FF#244 is the same character as the one in FF#50 or whichever it was - so I don't feel any need to reconcile the two. It might be a good question for whoever wrote FF#244, though. |
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Post by berkley on Oct 2, 2015 3:01:46 GMT -5
The Ultimate Nullifier is still a very problematic method of resolving the plot. . . How do we know that the Ultimate Nullifier even works? Was there a Penultimate Nullifier that was used for testing purposes? I hear the Antepenultimate Nullifier was very unreliable ... |
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