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Post by Spike-X on Oct 26, 2015 2:58:54 GMT -5
News reporting has an obligation to report the facts fairly and impartially. Fiction has no such obligation. There is a deep irony inherent in what you say. Yes, I know... |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 26, 2015 6:03:56 GMT -5
So we seem to all agree then.
Politics and comics are a good match, some of our fave runs on popular superheroes are political (I shared my love for the Cap run where he investigates Guantanamo and considers running for VP for the democrats - I liked it because it was a good story, mind you and would have found it even more interesting if Cap ever run for the Republicans!), and indeed, a writer who is so self-concious of his audience that he refuses to take sides he believes in is always a tad disapointing.
On that last not, I'm always annoyed by Brian K Vaughn : he's the ultimate coward writer in that regard : Ex Machina was a good read but always seemed desperate to hold a balance between boh sides of the US political theatre. Vaughn is the ultimate devils advocate in htat he'll find an argument for what he opposes every chance he gets. That might be a quality, but sometimes it just seems too methodical and forced.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 26, 2015 9:00:21 GMT -5
All within balance and reason for me. If the writer wants to preach the idea/politics/social agenda to me directly via the fiction, then no. I can read Cerebus (of the first 5 volumes I've read/really wish the library had them) without feeling like (from what I hear) Sims is preaching his ideas to me like he does in his essays. I don't care/mind for real world references or fictional takes on something that really happened in the world. It's just an aspect of a good story. It's when it takes over the whole story and becomes a soapbox for the writer to stand on that I care not to read it.
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Post by Randle-El on Oct 26, 2015 9:53:09 GMT -5
All within balance and reason for me. If the writer wants to preach the idea/politics/social agenda to me directly via the fiction, then no. I can read Cerebus (of the first 5 volumes I've read/really wish the library had them) without feeling like (from what I hear) Sims is preaching his ideas to me like he does in his essays. I don't care/mind for real world references or fictional takes on something that really happened in the world. It's just an aspect of a good story. It's when it takes over the whole story and becomes a soapbox for the writer to stand on that I care not to read it. I think this nails it on the head right here. I think it's pretty well understood at this point that comics have long had political influences. For me, it's more of an issue of whether it's done in an elegant or clumsy manner. At the end of the day, I want to read a good story. Even if the creators are obviously leaning in a particular direction political, I can still be entertained by the story if they explore the issue in a way that isn't ham-fisted and tries to find a common point of reference for everyone, even if it could be a potentially divisive topic. It's all about the execution. The writer could have a very different position from mine, but if they incorporate it into the story in an elegant and engaging way, I can still be entertained by it. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 26, 2015 10:29:05 GMT -5
All within balance and reason for me. If the writer wants to preach the idea/politics/social agenda to me directly via the fiction, then no. I can read Cerebus (of the first 5 volumes I've read/really wish the library had them) without feeling like (from what I hear) Sims is preaching his ideas to me like he does in his essays. I don't care/mind for real world references or fictional takes on something that really happened in the world. It's just an aspect of a good story. It's when it takes over the whole story and becomes a soapbox for the writer to stand on that I care not to read it. I think this nails it on the head right here. I think it's pretty well understood at this point that comics have long had political influences. For me, it's more of an issue of whether it's done in an elegant or clumsy manner. At the end of the day, I want to read a good story. Even if the creators are obviously leaning in a particular direction political, I can still be entertained by the story if they explore the issue in a way that isn't ham-fisted and tries to find a common point of reference for everyone, even if it could be a potentially divisive topic. It's all about the execution. The writer could have a very different position from mine, but if they incorporate it into the story in an elegant and engaging way, I can still be entertained by it. And a lot of the reason for that preference in comics, like movies, TV shows, novels or video games, are escapism for me. So yeah while a writer, director, creator, game designer can't absolutely cut out all realism in their creations, too much of it, is well, realistic. Realism of the world I can get on the internet, news, newspaper, non-fiction and documentaries, all of which exist for my too choose to consume them. But when it comes to fiction, I want to Escape! But not with pina colodas. They taste terrible. :-) |
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Post by dupersuper on Oct 27, 2015 8:01:38 GMT -5
Well, I have never read those issues, and unless I could find cheap reprints, I image they are well out of my price range. Even still, did the writer bother to give the gray a chance? The mine-owner might be greedy and the working conditions unsafe, but it is still a job and one can always quit. Lots of people are poor and never steal. This is why I shudder at politics and preaching in my comic books, because it is hard to provide balance. This is not a criticism of the writer, it is difficult for most people to imagine those with opposing views as decent people with different opinions, let alone to get into their heads and see where they are coming from. Superman Chronicles Vol. 1 reprints those issues and is very affordable. And Supes was willing to bomb the slums of the city to get rid of them...no political statement there at all. As for the age of the characters...Tony Stark was 29 when he became Iron Man in the Viet Nam war, he was 29 when he fought Captain America in Civil War and 20 years form now he will be 29 in whatever story is being told then. Comic characters do not age, but that has never stopped the writers and publishers form using contemporary issues in their stories. Try Amazing Spider-Man #36 (Vol. 2) the black cover 9/11 issue where the heroes deal with the horror and aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. At that time the media was applauding Marvel for their addressing real world political issues. If you are going to avoid telling certain kinds of stories (or avoiding certain kinds of content or context for the stories) because the characters don't age in real time, you might as well fold up shop and give up the ghost because you are letting trivia trump substance and that never leads to good storytelling of any sort. One of the unwritten rules of stories is that they will tell you more about the attitudes and beliefs of the people of the time they are created than the time they are set. A period piece written now set in WWII will read differently than a period piece form the WWII era even if they both feature the same characters (or even the same plot). The contemporary piece set in WWII will tell you more about he politics and issues of now than WWII even though those issues and beliefs will be dressed as WWII era beliefs and issues. Similarly, a piece written in the WWII era but set in the Wild West will tell yo more about the attitudes off WWII than 19th century America, because writers and audiences are shaped by the issues of the world around them and it influences and inform the stories they write (writers) and the way they experience stories (the audience) whether they are aware of it or not. Every story is political (and philosophical or sociological or what not) even if many times the reader is bringing in meaning the writer never intended or was unaware he/she put in there. -M I admit I'm not a regular Iron Man reader, so maybe his age has been brought up there and I missed it, but I haven't got the impression he's a mere 29 for quite a while. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Oct 27, 2015 9:25:03 GMT -5
I think this nails it on the head right here. I think it's pretty well understood at this point that comics have long had political influences. For me, it's more of an issue of whether it's done in an elegant or clumsy manner. At the end of the day, I want to read a good story. Even if the creators are obviously leaning in a particular direction political, I can still be entertained by the story if they explore the issue in a way that isn't ham-fisted and tries to find a common point of reference for everyone, even if it could be a potentially divisive topic. It's all about the execution. The writer could have a very different position from mine, but if they incorporate it into the story in an elegant and engaging way, I can still be entertained by it. And a lot of the reason for that preference in comics, like movies, TV shows, novels or video games, are escapism for me. So yeah while a writer, director, creator, game designer can't absolutely cut out all realism in their creations, too much of it, is well, realistic. Realism of the world I can get on the internet, news, newspaper, non-fiction and documentaries, all of which exist for my too choose to consume them. But when it comes to fiction, I want to Escape! But not with pina colodas. They taste terrible. :-) Much as I hate to inject a controversial viewpoint into a political thread, I have to stand up and say... pina coladas are delicious. There even used to be a regional soda company that had a pina colada flavored soda that was a favorite in my household. Still kind of miss that. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 27, 2015 12:05:00 GMT -5
RE: Iron Man's age. He was meant to be in his early-mid 20s at the start (He's often referred as young for being in charge of a company and such), but early Marvel kinda sorta moved in real time. I think he paused at around 30 and pretty much stayed there. You could argue he was in him mid, even late 30s (gasp!) at the time of the Crossing, but you could also argue he was still 30. THen, of course, we got Teen Tony, and re-aged Tony without explanation. That was definitely a younger Tony, though, as he was dating the Fujiwara girl, who was barely out of college... I don't think he was meant to be older than 30. I think today's Tony Stark is in his early 30s.. maybe mid 30s again, but I can't see them letting him get older.
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Post by Randle-El on Oct 27, 2015 15:09:15 GMT -5
Given that Marvel publishing seems to taking all their cues from the film side and re-imagining characters to sync better with their MCU counterparts, it makes a lot of sense for Tony Stark in the current comics to be in his 40s at least. For one thing, RDJ is pushing 50 years old. Additionally, MCU fixed their timeline by placing Howard Stark as a contemporary of WWII Steve Rogers. This creates a problem because you have a WWII-era man being the father of a modern day man -- in most cases, it would be more plausible to have him be the grandfather. Unless you want to have a geriatric Howard Stark siring Tony (which besides being unusual, would conflict with the old movie scenes in Iron Man 2 where Howard is shown filming a message to Tony in what looks roughly like the 60s), the only way that works is if you make Tony born sometime in the 60s or early 70s. Besides, being a genius engineer, Tony's abilities are all based on his intellect or from the Iron Man suit, so he could continue to be Iron Man well into old age.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 20:08:03 GMT -5
Sure. Comics is a medium capable of handling any subject. I think there is a time and place for many subjects, just like there is in film or TV or prose books, but I think Joe Sacco knows what he's doing.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 27, 2015 20:46:32 GMT -5
Captain America has never had politcal stories before this....  nope not at all... -M Right - and keep in mind this was before the US was involved in the war - and when their was significant opposition to the idea. I am okay with characters that were created specifically to address political issues addressing political issues. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 22:53:53 GMT -5
This is one area that I'm not comfortable with and having said that I'm totally against Comic Books getting Political at all. That's my 2 cents worth!
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Post by dupersuper on Oct 28, 2015 0:29:36 GMT -5
And a lot of the reason for that preference in comics, like movies, TV shows, novels or video games, are escapism for me. So yeah while a writer, director, creator, game designer can't absolutely cut out all realism in their creations, too much of it, is well, realistic. Realism of the world I can get on the internet, news, newspaper, non-fiction and documentaries, all of which exist for my too choose to consume them. But when it comes to fiction, I want to Escape! But not with pina colodas. They taste terrible. :-) Much as I hate to inject a controversial viewpoint into a political thread, I have to stand up and say... pina coladas are delicious. There even used to be a regional soda company that had a pina colada flavored soda that was a favorite in my household. Still kind of miss that. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 0:47:06 GMT -5
And a lot of the reason for that preference in comics, like movies, TV shows, novels or video games, are escapism for me. So yeah while a writer, director, creator, game designer can't absolutely cut out all realism in their creations, too much of it, is well, realistic. Realism of the world I can get on the internet, news, newspaper, non-fiction and documentaries, all of which exist for my too choose to consume them. But when it comes to fiction, I want to Escape! But not with pina colodas. They taste terrible. :-) Much as I hate to inject a controversial viewpoint into a political thread, I have to stand up and say... pina coladas are delicious. There even used to be a regional soda company that had a pina colada flavored soda that was a favorite in my household. Still kind of miss that. Beware, a new trend is to add bananas to Pina Colada, so you may sit back and relax with your icy treat only to get a mouthful of banana!  Now back to your regularly scheduled conversation on politics in comics....      nothing to see here.... -M |
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Post by batlaw on Oct 28, 2015 1:40:21 GMT -5
Should comics get political? Sure. At least in the sense of tackling topics of social importance and interest. Yes if its discussion and exploration of ideas and viewpoints on real world issues of the day. No however if it cannot be done skillfully, intelligently and fairly. No if it's pandering, no if it's propaganda. No if it's virtual brainwashing. Sadly, my personal opinion is that over the last several years, comics have steadily devolved much more into the later than anything else.
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