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Post by senatortombstone on Oct 25, 2015 21:04:10 GMT -5
Recently there was a little controversy regarding the new(er) Captain America's altercation with some foes called the Sons of the Serpent, over the latter's patrolling of the United States-Mexican border. Now, I will not take sides or betray my own political views and I am not asking anyone else to, I am merely asking you if you think contemporary politics, which change like the weather, have any place in superhero comics, in which characters with fifty years of continuity are still in their twenties.
Not only that, but when I sit down and read a comic book about fantasy worlds and fantastical characters, I don't want to be reminded of real world strife and conflict. And does a world threatened by the likes of mutants, super-humans, aliens, and cosmic devourers really have the same problems that we do?
Also, comics, with very few exceptions, aren't generally geared towards a particular political demographic, so why would a writer risk potentially alienating some of his readership by taking a decisive stand on any divisive issue. If contemporary political issues are going to be discussed in comic books, it should be done neutrally.
In any case, just wondering what others think of this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 21:18:42 GMT -5
Political issues like oh say the Nixon administration being the focal point of Englehart's Secret Empire saga in Captain America, or the Civil Rights movement and the KKK in the original Sons of the Serpent stories in the 60s, and not to mention the entire Cold War zeitgeist that permeated Marvel comics through much of the Silver Age?
Marvel, in particular, has a history of addressing current political issues in their mags throughout the Silver and Bronze age (and beyond).
Fiction often addresses the world it is created in even if those issues are in another guise or form. That's part of the function of fiction, even escapist fiction. Fiction is meant to challenge the reader while entertaining them-the thematic content may be political, sociological, philosophical, or whatever, but there are usually multiple layers to the stories we experience. Even pulp adventure fiction (often seen as escapist fiction in it's purest form), like Howard's Conan tales, is layered with his views on the merits of civilization, his views on race, colored by the political and sociological events that plagued/typified boomtowns in Texas and western Arkanasas during the Depression era that Howard lived through.
The controversy these days is not a result of the content, but the audience's inability to handle hearing differing viewpoints and whining when everything doesn't synch up with their own or requires more nuanced thought than hearing a soundbyte or clicking a like button. I haven't read the Cap issues in question, but challenging contemporary issues has been the hallmark of Marvel tradition for as long as I remember, and I applaud writers who do so, whether I agree with them or not.
Don't dumb down and lessen (cheapen) our fiction more by avoiding things that make people uncomfortable, make them think more while they are entertained. Critical thinking skills only get better when they get used and challenging fiction only gives us more reason to use them. We don't need people using those skills less for heaven's sake.
-M
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Post by coke & comics on Oct 25, 2015 21:20:31 GMT -5
When do people think comics got political?
The earliest politically charged comics I've come across are the old Superman stories from Action Comics in 1938.
Where he takes on corrupt politicians and arms dealers, a greedy mine-owner subjecting his workers to unsafe conditions, and blames a theft committed by juveniles not on the children, but on the cycle of poverty itself.
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Post by coke & comics on Oct 25, 2015 21:21:49 GMT -5
Also, on the word "controversy".
I would like it if the word meant something more than "the thing Fox News chose to target this week".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 21:23:13 GMT -5
Captain America has never had politcal stories before this....  nope not at all... -M |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 25, 2015 21:28:09 GMT -5
What makes it funnier in this instance is the fact that it surrounds Captain America(granted it's a different guy under the hood) who is probably one of the most political comic characters there is. I mean, he punched out Hitler and sold War Bonds during WWII, you don't get much more political than that.
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Post by spoon on Oct 25, 2015 21:41:38 GMT -5
Yes, I agree with the sentiments that comics have dealt with politics for quite a while.
A few notes on what other folks have mentioned:
1) If I recall correctly, the early Sons of the Serpent story weren't just about race. I think the group made anti-immigrant comments as well.
2) Nowadays, the rich whine so much about being targeted by class warfare, when they're actually the ones waging and winning the war. Superman in those early stories is much more anti-rich than Republicans' portrayal of Barack Obama.
3) One might say that early Captain America stories weren't that political, because one may think there was unanimity about Hitler. But what you have to remember is that Cap was introduced several months before the U.S. enter WWII. So Cap was punching out Hitler when many Americans were determined to stay out of the war.
I will say that any given comic book writers isn't necessarily wise on political issues.
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Post by senatortombstone on Oct 25, 2015 21:43:36 GMT -5
Political issues like oh say the Nixon administration being the focal point of Englehart's Secret Empire saga in Captain America, or the Civil Rights movement and the KKK in the original Sons of the Serpent stories in the 60s, and not to mention the entire Cold War zeitgeist that permeated Marvel comics through much of the Silver Age? Marvel, in particular, has a history of addressing current political issues in their mags throughout the Silver and Bronze age (and beyond). Fiction often addresses the world it is created in even if those issues are in another guise or form. That's part of the function of fiction, even escapist fiction. Fiction is meant to challenge the reader while entertaining them-the thematic content may be political, sociological, philosophical, or whatever, but there are usually multiple layers to the stories we experience. Even pulp adventure fiction (often seen as escapist fiction in it's purest form), like Howard's Conan tales, is layered with his views on the merits of civilization, his views on race, colored by the political and sociological events that plagued/typified boomtowns in Texas and western Arkanasas during the Depression era that Howard lived through. The controversy these days is not a result of the content, but the audience's inability to handle hearing differing viewpoints and whining when everything doesn't synch up with their own or requires more nuanced thought than hearing a soundbyte or clicking a like button. I haven't read the Cap issues in question, but challenging contemporary issues has been the hallmark of Marvel tradition for as long as I remember, and I applaud writers who do so, whether I agree with them or not. Don't dumb down and lessen (cheapen) our fiction more by avoiding things that make people uncomfortable, make them think more while they are entertained. Critical thinking skills only get better when they get used and challenging fiction only gives us more reason to use them. We don't need people using those skills less for heaven's sake. -M I don't mind comics being a metaphor for contemporary issues, but I don't like it when they are stripped from the national headlines without being incorporated and reinterpreted into the world of that particular comic book. To me, it seems anachronistic to bring up illegal immigration, 09/11, or the Vietnam war, because those are real world issues that have aged or will age to the point that it will have been impossible for the particular superhero or supervillain to have participated in them and still be in their twenties. For instance, 09/11 was mentioned in many Marvel books, well the Spider-Man of 2015 would have been a pre-powered teenager when 09/11 occurred. The other issue I have is that many writers simply do not do a good job of providing a balanced portrayal of contemporary issues - it's all black and white, with the writer's personal views being good and the opposite being evil. The stills from the Captain America issue in question actually have the bad guy's lecture to the illegals including "etc., etc." For the comics I read, this isn't really an issue for me, but since I heard about it in the news, I thought I would talk about it here. |
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Post by senatortombstone on Oct 25, 2015 21:54:13 GMT -5
When do people think comics got political? The earliest politically charged comics I've come across are the old Superman stories from Action Comics in 1938. Where he takes on corrupt politicians and arms dealers, a greedy mine-owner subjecting his workers to unsafe conditions, and blames a theft committed by juveniles not on the children, but on the cycle of poverty itself. Well, I have never read those issues, and unless I could find cheap reprints, I image they are well out of my price range. Even still, did the writer bother to give the gray a chance? The mine-owner might be greedy and the working conditions unsafe, but it is still a job and one can always quit. Lots of people are poor and never steal. This is why I shudder at politics and preaching in my comic books, because it is hard to provide balance. This is not a criticism of the writer, it is difficult for most people to imagine those with opposing views as decent people with different opinions, let alone to get into their heads and see where they are coming from. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 22:21:57 GMT -5
When do people think comics got political? The earliest politically charged comics I've come across are the old Superman stories from Action Comics in 1938. Where he takes on corrupt politicians and arms dealers, a greedy mine-owner subjecting his workers to unsafe conditions, and blames a theft committed by juveniles not on the children, but on the cycle of poverty itself. Well, I have never read those issues, and unless I could find cheap reprints, I image they are well out of my price range. Even still, did the writer bother to give the gray a chance? The mine-owner might be greedy and the working conditions unsafe, but it is still a job and one can always quit. Lots of people are poor and never steal. This is why I shudder at politics and preaching in my comic books, because it is hard to provide balance. This is not a criticism of the writer, it is difficult for most people to imagine those with opposing views as decent people with different opinions, let alone to get into their heads and see where they are coming from. Superman Chronicles Vol. 1 reprints those issues and is very affordable. And Supes was willing to bomb the slums of the city to get rid of them...no political statement there at all. As for the age of the characters...Tony Stark was 29 when he became Iron Man in the Viet Nam war, he was 29 when he fought Captain America in Civil War and 20 years form now he will be 29 in whatever story is being told then. Comic characters do not age, but that has never stopped the writers and publishers form using contemporary issues in their stories. Try Amazing Spider-Man #36 (Vol. 2) the black cover 9/11 issue where the heroes deal with the horror and aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. At that time the media was applauding Marvel for their addressing real world political issues. If you are going to avoid telling certain kinds of stories (or avoiding certain kinds of content or context for the stories) because the characters don't age in real time, you might as well fold up shop and give up the ghost because you are letting trivia trump substance and that never leads to good storytelling of any sort. One of the unwritten rules of stories is that they will tell you more about the attitudes and beliefs of the people of the time they are created than the time they are set. A period piece written now set in WWII will read differently than a period piece form the WWII era even if they both feature the same characters (or even the same plot). The contemporary piece set in WWII will tell you more about he politics and issues of now than WWII even though those issues and beliefs will be dressed as WWII era beliefs and issues. Similarly, a piece written in the WWII era but set in the Wild West will tell yo more about the attitudes off WWII than 19th century America, because writers and audiences are shaped by the issues of the world around them and it influences and inform the stories they write (writers) and the way they experience stories (the audience) whether they are aware of it or not. Every story is political (and philosophical or sociological or what not) even if many times the reader is bringing in meaning the writer never intended or was unaware he/she put in there. -M |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 25, 2015 22:54:05 GMT -5
I guess the comics should be more politically correct so as not to offend the conservatives.
Oh! I forgot! It's not politically correct to call it "political correctness" when conservatives are offended!
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 25, 2015 23:34:36 GMT -5
When do people think comics got political? The earliest politically charged comics I've come across are the old Superman stories from Action Comics in 1938. Where he takes on corrupt politicians and arms dealers, a greedy mine-owner subjecting his workers to unsafe conditions, and blames a theft committed by juveniles not on the children, but on the cycle of poverty itself. Well, I have never read those issues, and unless I could find cheap reprints, I image they are well out of my price range. Even still, did the writer bother to give the gray a chance? The mine-owner might be greedy and the working conditions unsafe, but it is still a job and one can always quit. Lots of people are poor and never steal. This is why I shudder at politics and preaching in my comic books, because it is hard to provide balance. This is not a criticism of the writer, it is difficult for most people to imagine those with opposing views as decent people with different opinions, let alone to get into their heads and see where they are coming from. You've not heard of company towns, the company store, and scrip? As to providing balance, that's on you as the reader. Otherwise, you're letting the writer do the thinking for you. And why would you worry about continuity issues when it comes to comics dealing with the real world? In the Golden Age everyone was fighting fascists; in the "Atomic" Age they switched to fighting Commies. The early Silver Age stuff avoided that sort of thing in reaction to the Wertham /EC/ comics code controversy, and as much as I may love that era, the books form those years are definitely the comics you'd see for sale at the Pleasantville newsstand. If I think I'm being preached ("praught?") to, I can stop reading and buying. |
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Post by Spike-X on Oct 26, 2015 1:30:26 GMT -5
Because writers have opinions on things, and unless they're complete cowards afraid of rocking the boat in case they might miss a sale or six, they're going to put their opinions into their work in some fashion. That's just the nature of the craft.
Besides, anyone offended by the idea that human beings deserve to be treated like human beings (which is basically the core of the Captain America and Superman stories you seem to be objecting to here) deserves to be.
Why? It's a story, not a debate. News reporting has an obligation to report the facts fairly and impartially. Fiction has no such obligation.
Why would you even want to read a story by somebody who either has nothing to say, or is too afraid to say it? What's the appeal of that? I honestly don't understand.
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Post by coke & comics on Oct 26, 2015 2:39:59 GMT -5
News reporting has an obligation to report the facts fairly and impartially. Fiction has no such obligation. There is a deep irony inherent in what you say. |
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Post by coke & comics on Oct 26, 2015 2:42:05 GMT -5
When do people think comics got political? The earliest politically charged comics I've come across are the old Superman stories from Action Comics in 1938. Where he takes on corrupt politicians and arms dealers, a greedy mine-owner subjecting his workers to unsafe conditions, and blames a theft committed by juveniles not on the children, but on the cycle of poverty itself. Well, I have never read those issues, and unless I could find cheap reprints, I image they are well out of my price range. Even still, did the writer bother to give the gray a chance? The mine-owner might be greedy and the working conditions unsafe, but it is still a job and one can always quit. Lots of people are poor and never steal. This is why I shudder at politics and preaching in my comic books, because it is hard to provide balance. This is not a criticism of the writer, it is difficult for most people to imagine those with opposing views as decent people with different opinions, let alone to get into their heads and see where they are coming from. But getting into the heads of people with different experiences is what writers and readers and all people are called to do. I've never been a mine-worker, but I can try to imagine the world from their viewpoint. I've never been a poor child from a poor neighborhood, but I can try to imagine the world from their viewpoint. |
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