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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 4, 2015 1:43:50 GMT -5
What are yours ?
I ask because lately the New 52 Superman and Batman have become even less ... likeable, ummm, ...desirable for me as a reader/collector. I really dont like the direction either have taken, and especially with Suoerman feel he has moved even further from the character he should be. At least initially he was Superman lite, kind of like a real one, but missing a piece or 2. This current direction is appalling. The character is so far removed from who he should be, they really should be ashamed of what theyve done. Batman and Detective, with the move to Gordon as RoboBat is just horrendous, so Ive got rid of those and refuse to read anymore of that rubbish til Bruce(or even Dick) is back in the suit. At least the New 52 Bat was pretty much the same as always, but this crap reeks.
Im certainly not against change in the books, have taken all the New52 on merit, but this desperate crud just has to change before they just annoy their entire audience. The Convergence travesty was a chance for them to right some serious wrongs, but instead they seem hell bent on gifting the whole business to Marvel.
Or am I in a minority? Are these really the saviour of the comic book race?
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Nov 4, 2015 6:19:20 GMT -5
I have no issue with Gordon-bat, we know it's only one storyline. Some change and experimentation is always healthy. That one seems at first like a huge deal, then again, why no, if the story is fun and furthers what has come before since Snyder's debut.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 4, 2015 6:59:32 GMT -5
I haven't enjoyed Superman at all in the new 52 era. The RoboBat thing is probably to try to tie it closer to Gotham (the TV show)... I don't really like Snyder, so I haven't tried it, but it doesn't seem any different than other times Bruce got temporarily replaced.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Nov 4, 2015 8:56:38 GMT -5
I've always maintained that DC should essentially function under two imprints:
Continuity Driven: Have one imprint that is essentially like what DC is doing now -- things change, stuff happens, the status quo gets shaken to boost sales and generate hype.
Legacy Driven: Have one imprint that keeps the classic spirit of the characters intact. We've seen this tried intermittently with things like Legends of the Dark Knight, the All-Star titles, the Confidential titles, and even Wonder Woman '77, but do it more deliberately with the intent of pumping out monthly stories where characters and the status quo DO NOT change. Instead of being a simple retro stunt, this is where writers can thrive who want to tell GOOD stories without the shock and awe. A Paul Dini type writer, for example, could positively thrive here.
I think the readers would support this if it were done more deliberately and with more commitment behind it. Don't throw the D listers on the Legacy titles or (worse yet) give complete control of them to one A lister; don't make those titles pander to kids, mature readers, or any one small demographic. They should be all-ages awesomeness.
Thus, if you don't like the continuity-driven stuff, quit complaining. The Legacy titles are there for you. And if you crave change and progression in your titles, quit complaining; the Continuity driven titles are there for you.
Fans could have their cake and eat it too.
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 4, 2015 10:32:50 GMT -5
Great idea, shax. Never gonna happen as long as Didio is driving the clown car.
Cei-U! I really don't like that man!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 4, 2015 11:17:02 GMT -5
I actually really like what they're doing with Superman and Action, depowering him has made physical confrontations interesting and what they end up doing with his identity being revealed is pretty compelling.
As for Robobats, I'm contemplating dropping Batman but I've really enjoying the focus on Bullock in Detective with Robobat as more of a supporting character.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Nov 4, 2015 11:29:50 GMT -5
So it's the same old story : some people like it, some hate it, some want it to stick to how it was when they liked it, some want it to evolve and take chances with the risk of disappointing, etc... There's a few of the new DC I would probably buy if I was a teen (Grayson, Midnighter, Omega Men, Black Canary, Action comics...), but I already barely manage to read what I buy, so I accept that I might miss on those. It's an age thing. That being said, I think DC still is miles ahead Marvel in terms of innovation : Marvel only seem to gather my attentions with the creators they enlist when DC sometimes manages to interest me with their concepts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 12:20:37 GMT -5
I was a faithful reader of Superman and Action Comics before the New 52. I read Superboy and Supergirl as well. After the new 52 started, those characters became very unlikable and unfamiliar to me. Granted I am over 40 and it seems DC is aiming for the younger audience, but as a long-time DC reader, I feel very alienated from their current publications and the current take on these characters. I guess I am a grumpy old man, haha! I only read Grayson now, mainly because it is a fun, well written, and beautifully drawn book. I am also picking up the new Lois and Clark series and Titans Hunt.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Nov 4, 2015 12:56:39 GMT -5
It's the job of hte elders to doubt the present and the youth's to have hope in it. As much as I can sometime like Snyder, I'm not a fan of his Batman, yet. But at least it's miles more ambitious than what I've read from Chuck Dixon, Alan Grant, Doug Moench, Frank Robbins, David Vern Reed, Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Max Allan Collins, Marv Wolfman, Larry Hama, Jeph Loeb and a few others I don't remember on the top of my head.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 14:06:42 GMT -5
I've always maintained that DC should essentially function under two imprints: Continuity Driven: Have one imprint that is essentially like what DC is doing now -- things change, stuff happens, the status quo gets shaken to boost sales and generate hype. Legacy Driven: Have one imprint that keeps the classic spirit of the characters intact. We've seen this tried intermittently with things like Legends of the Dark Knight, the All-Star titles, the Confidential titles, and even Wonder Woman '77, but do it more deliberately with the intent of pumping out monthly stories where characters and the status quo DO NOT change. Instead of being a simple retro stunt, this is where writers can thrive who want to tell GOOD stories without the shock and awe. A Paul Dini type writer, for example, could positively thrive here. I think the readers would support this if it were done more deliberately and with more commitment behind it. Don't throw the D listers on the Legacy titles or (worse yet) give complete control of them to one A lister; don't make those titles pander to kids, mature readers, or any one small demographic. They should be all-ages awesomeness. Thus, if you don't like the continuity-driven stuff, quit complaining. The Legacy titles are there for you. And if you crave change and progression in your titles, quit complaining; the Continuity driven titles are there for you. Fans could have their cake and eat it too. Great idea, shax. Never gonna happen as long as Didio is driving the clown car. Cei-U! I really don't like that man! The only problem is that in the current marketplace the only books that sell are books that "matter" hence the event driven tentpole strategy both the big 2 use. Books like Shax would be great, but their is nothing in current buying trends to indicate that the current crop of comic buyers would buy them and there is no infrastructure in place to bring them to a different audience that might support them, so it would take a huge capital investment by both publishers to build such an infrastructure, and we all know that is not going to happen under Didio/Alonso, or under anyone who has to show certain levels of profit margin to corporate accountants in quarterly reports after their tenures. Until their is a different zeitgeist among the audience, that kind of publishing plan would never get off the ground. The 18-34 demographic drives media revenue and the audience that would support the types of books Shax proposes is typically beyond that demo now. I'd love to see them, won't happen in my lifetime I'd bet, and not just because of Didio, but because of the choices audiences make as to what to support. Comic audiences over the last decade plus have shown given a choice between a book that matters and one that doesn't regardless of creative team, the one that "matters" will sell and the one that doesn't won't. Creating a whole line of books that don't "matter" the way the current audience defines it, is not a recipe for success in the current market, and there's not really a way to change their minds or reach a different market that works for what each publisher is willing to do. As for the current direction of DC, I sampled a lot of books in the first 18 months of the new52, but dropped my last book after Villains month interrupted the few stories I was actually interested in. I tried a few of the "Batgirled" titles (Batgirl, Gotham Academy, & Gotham by Midnight) and enjoyed what I sampled from the library, but not enough to follow the books in any way except checking out stuff from the library if/when they get it. I may check out the new Dr. Fate and Omega Men-and possibly the Canary book) in trade, but nothing else in the Johns/Lee guided Didio supervised DC paradigm interests me and hasn't for a long time. Neither has the Earth One attempts to do something different because they fall squarely into the Johns/Lee/Didio paradigm, there are cosmetic differences but the underlying tone and theme of those books is the same as the "mainstream" DCU under their supervision. Their new direction is same as it ever was under that trio. -M
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 15:28:17 GMT -5
I was trying to remember my pull list after the New 52 started... Superman Action Superboy Supergirl Justice League Justice League International or whatever it was called Teen Titans Batgirl Justice League Dark Aquaman Legion of Super Heroes Legion Lost Wonder Woman Hawk and Dove Hawkman Wonder Woman
I did give it a try, the books just didn't appeal to me unfortunately. Aquaman started off really well for me (and was my favorite along with Justice League Dark), but with the introduction of The Others I lost interest.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Nov 4, 2015 18:35:17 GMT -5
I was a faithful reader of Superman and Action Comics before the New 52. I read Superboy and Supergirl as well. After the new 52 started, those characters became very unlikable and unfamiliar to me. Granted I am over 40 and it seems DC is aiming for the younger audience, but as a long-time DC reader, I feel very alienated from their current publications and the current take on these characters. I guess I am a grumpy old man, haha! I only read Grayson now, mainly because it is a fun, well written, and beautifully drawn book. I am also picking up the new Lois and Clark series and Titans Hunt. Huh. I just read a BUNCH of Superman Post-52 stuff and it all felt very on-point with the depiction of Superman. (Not particularly GOOD, all of it, but it definitely felt like Superman to me.) Still, it's always nice to hear that DC is aiming at a younger audience. It is pretty ridiculous to make superhero comics for dudes my age.
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Post by Randle-El on Nov 4, 2015 23:08:12 GMT -5
Both Marvel and DC have engaged in business practices that I'm not particularly fond of, but between the two of them, I will Marvel credit for the fact that they have a greater appearance of knowing what they are doing. I might not like everything they do, but there seems to be more of a focused vision and a commitment to their direction. They also seem more willing take risks and do something different (well, as different and as risky as you can be while doing big two superhero comics). Marvel was much quicker to pick up on current readers' willingness to follow quirky, atypical superhero books with idiosyncratic art styles, for example. In comparison, DC just comes off being desperate, willing to try anything. There recent books like Batgirl or Gotham Academy seem like a case of Johnny-come-lately.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Nov 5, 2015 2:00:55 GMT -5
The way I see it DC's problem since well before the reboot is that the editors that came in in the 2000s don't think like editors or writers. Didio particularly is a marketing person who has no skill in any other area. This focus on marketing over storytelling is what lead to Identity Crisis, the killing of Stephanie Brown and Jack Drake, the erasure of Linda Danvers, making the heroes hate each other, Amazons Attack, Countdown to Final Crisis, ect. Because the reboot wasn't accompanied by a significant change in who the editors are we ended up with idiocy like having 4 Robins in 5 years, making Barbara Batgirl again while keeping The Killing Joke as her defining story, forcing BQM to use an 'iconic' character in Smallville of all places instead of the character he wrote, the editors not caring about keeping the person writing Superman informed because who cares about that when Grant Morrison is on the other Superman book, ect.
As an idea I like Truth. The execution hasn't been there. I think Superman needs an Eternal-type story to focus on Superman's supporting cast, bring back some of the characters that have been lost since the triangle era, and reestablish Superman as someone who inspires others, including other heroes.
Not reading Batman anymore except for where Stephanie Brown appears.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 2:11:01 GMT -5
Right Now, I'm leaning towards Dynamite Comics and Marvel Comics for my Comics Reading and only read Batman 66, Sensation Comics starring Wonder Woman, and Wonder Woman 77. I'm also leaning toward Lois and Clark Series that mrjupiter mentioned and might take a gander on Titans Hunt too. I used to read Justice League, Aquaman, and other books and now they no longer interest me and therefore it's sad that I'm no longer a DC Comics Guy - But a more Diverse Guy that's spreading his wings to Dynamite Comics, Marvel Comics, Image Comics, and so forth.
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