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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 19, 2015 9:26:51 GMT -5
How can you not love stories like this? It isn't a mere Moby Dick! It's the Super-Moby Dick of Space! And it ate Lightning Lad's arm! Why do people hate fun?I especially love the purple wings and the grumpy look on Super-Moby Dick's face. "I hate Mondays. Maybe this rocketship will get the taste of Lightning Lad's arm out of my mouth. It's worth a try." Frank Miller and Christopher Nolan saw to that. Thankfully that "I did something serious in funny books" spiel comics have been on was answered with Abnett & Lanning and Guardians of the Galaxy. I may not be able to get into those camp comics of old times, but I enjoy fun when it's produced. (Also Gon. No text but still fun, enjoyable stories.)
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Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 19, 2015 9:52:19 GMT -5
I simply don't get the Legion love. Yes, it's had some very entertaining runs in its history (Shooter/Swan and Levitz/Giffen come to mind) but I just can't take seriously a space opera full of characters named Bouncing Boy, Matter-Eater Lad, Kid Psycho and Infectious Lass. I've felt this way since the '60s and I just don't find them that interesting. If I really need a super-team fix, I'll take the Avengers. the old school JLA or my faves, the Justice Society. They can be pretty absurd too, I grant, but with a different vibe I relate to better. Cei-U! I summon the future schlock! Heathens...heathens everywhere... The Legion may have been chock full of Silver Age silliness (yes, like their names), but it also had some good stories with serious stuff going on. The Legion had a higher body count, of characters that stayed dead (not counting reboots), than anyone (Ferro Lad, Triplicate Girl, Chemical King, Invisible Kid, etc.). They had their own cemetery in space! They also had non-fatal things happen to the characters that weren't wiped away by the end of the story, that went on in ongoing stories (Lightning Lad's "death" and resurrection, his robot arm, characters losing and regaining their powers, leaving and rejoining, etc.).
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2015 10:59:13 GMT -5
How can you not love stories like this? It isn't a mere Moby Dick! It's the Super-Moby Dick of Space! And it ate Lightning Lad's arm! Why do people hate fun?I especially love the purple wings and the grumpy look on Super-Moby Dick's face. "I hate Mondays. Maybe this rocketship will get the taste of Lightning Lad's arm out of my mouth. It's worth a try." Frank Miller and Christopher Nolan saw to that. Thankfully that "I did something serious in funny books" spiel comics have been on was answered with Abnett & Lanning and Guardians of the Galaxy. I may not be able to get into those camp comics of old times, but I enjoy fun when it's produced. (Also Gon. No text but still fun, enjoyable stories.) What really gets me about "grim and gritty" comics (and the movies) is how chockfull they are of really silly elements, motivations that make no sense, overly dramatic moments, overwrought dialogue, etc. It's just a different kind of silly. And yet the hardcore fans look down on goofy comics that really aren't substantially sillier than the Punisher or Wolverine or whatever. Don't get me wrong. Just because I think much of "The Dark Knight Returns" is silly doesn't mean I don't love it. The worst offenders are the members of the Christopher Nolan cult. His Batman movies are not the most realistic super-hero movies ever made. I can't believe anybody even makes that claim. As I much as I love The Dark Knight, I can't see how anybody thinks it's realistic. And it is incredibly silly at times. It's not as unashamedly silly as Tthe Super-Moby Dick of Space", but it's still silly. Exactly why does Batman have to forfeit his credibility as a crimefighter and stage-manage martyrdom for Harvey Dent? How does that somehow save Gotham? It's spectacularly silly. As a matter of fact, like a lot of super-hero movie plots, it's sillier than your average comic book plot. And The Dark Knight Rises is an aggressively stupid movie. I liked the first hour and I liked the last hour (despite a lot of silliness), but there's a ten- or twelve-hour segment in between that is even more dull than the bulk of Moonraker. There. I said it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 11:00:39 GMT -5
Cosmic Boy is part of Legion, yes? I have his mini. I have not read it yet.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2015 11:18:09 GMT -5
Cosmic Boy is part of Legion, yes? I have his mini. I have not read it yet. Cosmic Boy is one of the founding members of the Legion of Super-Heroes, dating all the way back to Adventure Comics #247 in 1958. The Green Arrow story is wonderfully silly. As is the Aquaman story, which also has art by Ramona Fradon! I vaguely remember seeing ads for the Cosmic Boy mini-series but I've never read it and I have no idea what it's about or whether it's any good.
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Post by MDG on Nov 19, 2015 11:19:37 GMT -5
Frank Miller and Christopher Nolan saw to that.... What really gets me about "grim and gritty" comics (and the movies) is how chockfull they are of really silly elements, motivations that make no sense, overly dramatic moments, overwrought dialogue, etc. It's just a different kind of silly... The worst offenders are the members of the Christopher Nolan cult. His Batman movies are not the most realistic super-hero movies ever made. I can't believe anybody even makes that claim. The term "realistic super heroes" doesn't make sense. There's no way to tell how an active costumed vigilante event would play out in the real world--let alone the same with powers beyond those of mortal men--but my guess is it wouldn't be anything like in the comics or movies. I know it's not a favorite around here, but Wild Dog is probably one of the few series--especially the original mini--that tried to be "realistic."
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2015 11:28:01 GMT -5
Since I had the Comic Book Database open to get the cover for Adventure #247, I looked at the entry for the Cosmic Boy mini-series.
There's good news and bad news.
The good news is it's written by Paul Levitz. Also, the art is attributed to Keith Giffen and Ernie Colon. (I think that's good news. It sounds like an odd collaboration as I think about it.)
The bad news is that it's a Legends cross-over. Your experience with Legends might be different from mine but the chances that the Cosmic Boy mini-series is a good series drop down a bit just from being connected to the Legends event.
There. I said it.
But you've already got it, coldwater. You should read it and judge it for yourself. And let us know! It apparently had a lot of interesting guest stars.
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Post by MDG on Nov 19, 2015 11:32:03 GMT -5
Since I had the Comic Book Database open to get the cover for Adventure #247, I looked at the entry for the Cosmic Boy mini-series. There's good news and bad news. The good news is it's written by Paul Levitz. Also, the art is attributed to Keith Giffen and Ernie Colon. (I think that's good news. It sounds like an odd collaboration as I think about it.) Giffen was plot and layouts; Colon pencils and inks. I don't remember if Levitz was co-plot or just dialogue.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 19, 2015 11:37:32 GMT -5
Frank Miller and Christopher Nolan saw to that. Thankfully that "I did something serious in funny books" spiel comics have been on was answered with Abnett & Lanning and Guardians of the Galaxy. I may not be able to get into those camp comics of old times, but I enjoy fun when it's produced. (Also Gon. No text but still fun, enjoyable stories.) What really gets me about "grim and gritty" comics (and the movies) is how chockfull they are of really silly elements, motivations that make no sense, overly dramatic moments, overwrought dialogue, etc. It's just a different kind of silly. And yet the hardcore fans look down on goofy comics that really aren't substantially sillier than the Punisher or Wolverine or whatever. Don't get me wrong. Just because I think much of "The Dark Knight Returns" is silly doesn't mean I don't love it. The worst offenders are the members of the Christopher Nolan cult. His Batman movies are not the most realistic super-hero movies ever made. I can't believe anybody even makes that claim. As I much as I love The Dark Knight, I can't see how anybody thinks it's realistic. And it is incredibly silly at times. It's not as unashamedly silly as Tthe Super-Moby Dick of Space", but it's still silly. Exactly why does Batman have to forfeit his credibility as a crimefighter and stage-manage martyrdom for Harvey Dent? How does that somehow save Gotham? It's spectacularly silly. As a matter of fact, like a lot of super-hero movie plots, it's sillier than your average comic book plot. And The Dark Knight Rises is an aggressively stupid movie. I liked the first hour and I liked the last hour (despite a lot of silliness), but there's a ten- or twelve-hour segment in between that is even more dull than the bulk of Moonraker. There. I said it. I don't care for the majority of Frank Miller. I actively dislike the two Nolan Batman films I've watched. With no intention of seeing the third one unless it's an exercise in masochism. And I agree with your assessment of Nolan fans and the second film itself. Nolan making elements in it practical, the equipment, technology, and vehicles, gives the illusion it is "realistic". But as MDG mentions above, it's almost an impossibility to do so. The concept within itself is so conflicting to anything in reality that any story written about costumed crime fighters is going to be silly, no matter how much practicality one dresses it up to me. It's how Adam West or Burton's Batman is forever more entertaining than Nolan or Miller's version.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 19, 2015 13:36:03 GMT -5
I just wanted to add that Frank Miller, in his best work, embraced the silly aspects of the medium at the same time as he was injecting the grim and gritty elements. "The Dark Knight Returns" is full of satirical elements that veered over into the goofy realm all the time. "Daredevil" isn't quite so over-the-top but there are still elements of humor, often very successful. And I may be in a minority when I say I like "The Dark Knight Strikes Back," but I think I can safely say that Miller had a lot of fun crafting that particular story.
I don't think I've ever seen anybody try to say that any of these works are realistic.
That said, "Batman: Year One" is a mostly successful stab at creating an almost realistic origin for Batman. Miller was working with an unrealistic premise, but from the standpoint of realism, he works within the constraints of the fictional-but-almost-real world.
I'm less than enthusiastic about "Batman: Year One." I like it. It's pretty good. But my lukewarm response has nothing to do with any of the issues we're discussing here. (Although maybe I would like it better if Catwoman tried to steal an experimental flying tank.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 15:26:25 GMT -5
Since I had the Comic Book Database open to get the cover for Adventure #247, I looked at the entry for the Cosmic Boy mini-series. There's good news and bad news. The good news is it's written by Paul Levitz. Also, the art is attributed to Keith Giffen and Ernie Colon. (I think that's good news. It sounds like an odd collaboration as I think about it.) The bad news is that it's a Legends cross-over. Your experience with Legends might be different from mine but the chances that the Cosmic Boy mini-series is a good series drop down a bit just from being connected to the Legends event. There. I said it. But you've already got it, coldwater. You should read it and judge it for yourself. And let us know! It apparently had a lot of interesting guest stars. I will try to pull it out tonight and start it. However, warning: I haven't read any Legion of Superheroes yet, except for 1 book. So, I'm most likely going to be completely lost on Cosmic Boy's mini, but this doesn't mean much to me because I'll just go with it.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 19, 2015 15:39:25 GMT -5
Since I had the Comic Book Database open to get the cover for Adventure #247, I looked at the entry for the Cosmic Boy mini-series. There's good news and bad news. The good news is it's written by Paul Levitz. Also, the art is attributed to Keith Giffen and Ernie Colon. (I think that's good news. It sounds like an odd collaboration as I think about it.) The bad news is that it's a Legends cross-over. Your experience with Legends might be different from mine but the chances that the Cosmic Boy mini-series is a good series drop down a bit just from being connected to the Legends event. There. I said it. But you've already got it, coldwater. You should read it and judge it for yourself. And let us know! It apparently had a lot of interesting guest stars. I will try to pull it out tonight and start it. However, warning: I haven't read any Legion of Superheroes yet, except for 1 book. So, I'm most likely going to be completely lost on Cosmic Boy's mini, but this doesn't mean much to me because I'll just go with it. I think the Cosmic Boy mini is pretty awesome. Aside from featuring Cosmic Boy and Night Girl, who always get me excited when they show up, the mini also sets up some plots that are later expended in the Legion series proper, especially the stuff with Darkseid and Garridan Ranzz.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 19, 2015 17:14:01 GMT -5
I think the '84 Legion series would be a great place for Coldwater to start with Legion. Good art and stories, Levitz has a nice way with giving a big cast some of the spotlight, and there are some great strong female characters. Nothing too silly, theres plenty of Adventure Comics to seek out for that, and it hasnt gone grim'n'gritty yet(or fallen into reboot after reboot territory).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 17:26:22 GMT -5
I think the '84 Legion series would be a great place for Coldwater to start with Legion. Good art and stories, Levitz has a nice way with giving a big cast some of the spotlight, and there are some great strong female characters. Nothing too silly, theres plenty of Adventure Comics to seek out for that, and it hasnt gone grim'n'gritty yet(or fallen into reboot after reboot territory). I thought I had bought a few from that series to start because Pharozonk had suggested them, like, 2 years ago or something, so I ordered some...I thought. But when I looked all I could find were some Legionnaires copies I bought from some 25 cent boxes a year or so ago.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 19, 2015 17:51:34 GMT -5
I think the '84 Legion series would be a great place for Coldwater to start with Legion. Good art and stories, Levitz has a nice way with giving a big cast some of the spotlight, and there are some great strong female characters. Nothing too silly, theres plenty of Adventure Comics to seek out for that, and it hasnt gone grim'n'gritty yet(or fallen into reboot after reboot territory). I thought I had bought a few from that series to start because Pharozonk had suggested them, like, 2 years ago or something, so I ordered some...I thought. But when I looked all I could find were some Legionnaires copies I bought from some 25 cent boxes a year or so ago. I remember you sending me pictures of the first few issues of the '84 series after you bought them. I hope you're able to find them.
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