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Post by commond on Apr 17, 2023 18:51:23 GMT -5
Byrne is pretty honest about his inking:
"I have never considered myself my own best inker. I started inking my own work (after the Charlton days, at least) because Terry Austin bowed out as inker on FANTASTIC FOUR, and there were no acceptable choices available. (Top of the list was Vinnie Colletta, okay?) I didn't have much clue what I was doing when I started, and so did the best I could to imitate Terry -- with less than satisfying results. Over the following years, I kept messing about with the process, changing tools, changing line weight, changing paper size. I'd hit what I felt was a pretty good stride -- NAMOR, for instance, for most of the run -- and then some inner demon would compell me to try something new, and the results were not always to my own satisfaction. (In something like this, of course, one's own satisfaction is all one has to go by. Since every fan has a different idea of what makes for good inking -- someone has now read my reference to Vinnie inking FF and thought "Oh, man, that woulda bin GREAT!!" -- so I could only look at the finished job and decide for myself what was working and what wasn't. Problem there was that a finished page of original art doesn't have a whole lot to do with what a printed page looks like, so often something that looked great on the page would look rotten in the book. (WONDER WOMAN went thru a bout of this. Seemed like no matter what kind of ink I used, what kind of tool I used, what line weight I used, things would get scratchy, or muddy, or lines would drop out.)
Some of my best inking happened on NEXT MEN. There I had no imps on my shoulder whispering that the work needed to look like Joe Sinnott, or Tom Palmer, or anyone else who had inked the characters before -- because no one had inked the characters before! (I remember working on pages and thinking "So this is what John Byrne looks like!")"
I edited about the part where he got all defensive and attacked his critics.
I absolutely loved the inks he did on Wendy Pini's Elfquest.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 17, 2023 18:52:16 GMT -5
I had a whole thing to say about this, but one thing to remember is that Byrne made his impact as a working pretty much in the system, and had pretty long runs on books. Adams and Steranko made a point of positioning themselves as "outsiders" who intended to shake things up. But compared to Byrne, Adams and Steranko "dabbled" in comics for a few years and couldn't make a go of it. What an insane take. Of course they could have continued to do work for hire and churning out monthlies for other companies. But they were talented and driven enough to branch out into other endeavors and become highly successful.
Adams had his own studio that did comics, advertising, commercials, storyboards... and Steranko ran a magazine, as well as doing art for books and other outlets. Agreed; Adams had no problem "making a go" in comics. He was a talent who could afford to be selective with projects, whether it was superhero or horror titles, special magazines, licensing art (not all of it was reproduced from published comic art). He never needed to be a workhorse, but instead, when his work appeared, it was treated as special--essentially gracing numerous books' covers and/or interiors. This is not even getting into his historic participation in advocating for creator rights. He's one of the few legends of several categories in that business, with near-unmatched versatility. He was pretty much his own industry (along with Steranko)--a feat endless other artists and writers could and would only dream of mirroring. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 17, 2023 22:22:32 GMT -5
I absolutely loved the inks he did on Wendy Pini's Elfquest. he inked Elfquest?  I had no idea! neat! |
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Post by MDG on Apr 18, 2023 10:57:42 GMT -5
What an insane take. Of course they could have continued to do work for hire and churning out monthlies for other companies. But they were talented and driven enough to branch out into other endeavors and become highly successful.
Adams had his own studio that did comics, advertising, commercials, storyboards... and Steranko ran a magazine, as well as doing art for books and other outlets. Agreed; Adams had no problem "making a go" in comics. He was a talent who could afford to be selective with projects, whether it was superhero or horror titles, special magazines, licensing art (not all of it was reproduced from published comic art). He never needed to be a workhorse, but instead, when his work appeared, it was treated as special--essentially gracing numerous books' covers and/or interiors. This is not even getting into his historic participation in advocating for creator rights. He's one of the few legends of several categories in that business, with near-unmatched versatility. He was pretty much his own industry (along with Steranko)--a feat endless other artists and writers could and would only dream of mirroring. "Dabbled" was probably the wrong word, but the question is whether Byrne is should be considered on a par w/ Adams and Steranko, and if you consider his influence on fans, other and up-and-coming artists, and even the market during the late 70s-80s, sure, for mainstream comics, he probably was.
Adams and Steranko and other artists who started around the same period (Wrightson, Kaluta, others) produce some fine, but a relatively small, amount of comics. It was the next wave (Byrne, Simonson, Ordway, Miller, others) who'd stick around in the business, for better or worse.
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Post by commond on Apr 18, 2023 16:59:48 GMT -5
I absolutely loved the inks he did on Wendy Pini's Elfquest. he inked Elfquest? I had no idea! neat! Yeah, I was surprised as well. He inked the long awaited fight between Rayek and Cutter, which honestly, was probably the best fight since Ali/Frazier. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 18, 2023 21:07:57 GMT -5
Wow! I'll have to pull that out!
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Post by Duragizer on Apr 18, 2023 21:20:38 GMT -5
I thought that Karl Kesel did a great job on his pencils for the Legends series. Kesel was the main inker on his Superman work, no? I first became a Byrne fan due to his inks. |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Apr 19, 2023 7:49:05 GMT -5
The way omega-level mutants have been defined as having "limitless power" in their fields in recent years is a horrible idea that is making the X-Men comics worse. It's the 'Superman is too powerful and therefore uninteresting' problem made even worse. They've made Jean Grey into an even more boring character than she normally is in any story outside the original Dark Phoenix Saga, and there's no longer any point in having villains because Jean, Iceman, and other 'omega-level' mutants can insta-win without trying, which has been happening in the last few X-Men stories. Jean was apparently just born more powerful than the Phoenix Force could ever make her since she has truly unlimited power, while the Phoenix was outright stated to have limits even when it was destroying stars.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 7:59:32 GMT -5
The way omega-level mutants have been defined as having "limitless power" in their fields in recent years is a horrible idea that is making the X-Men comics worse. It's the 'Superman is too powerful and therefore uninteresting' problem made even worse. They've made Jean Grey into an even more boring character than she normally is in any story outside the original Dark Phoenix Saga, and there's no longer any point in having villains because Jean, Iceman, and other 'omega-level' mutants can insta-win without trying, which has been happening in the last few X-Men stories. Jean was apparently just born more powerful than the Phoenix Force could ever make her since she has truly unlimited power, while the Phoenix was outright stated to have limits even when it was destroying stars. I agree. And I believe it applies to so many characters. Iron Man seemed to have limitless functions when I last checked in on him. I miss the days when his armour had limits - and there were things he couldn’t do. Wasn’t that keen on Spidey’s Stark armour. The strength levels exhibited by the likes of the Thing and Hulk were more interesting when both characters debuted (wasn’t the Thing’s upper limit 5 tons or something?). Sometimes less is more. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 19, 2023 9:27:34 GMT -5
I think it's more the characters don't have defined power levels anymore.. it's whatever the current writer wants them to be. I mean, I suppose it's always been that way to an extent, but it's much more obvious lately.
Writing logical superhero fights is definitely a lost art, IMO.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 19, 2023 10:26:54 GMT -5
I agree. The last X-Men story I read (and that was simply part of a trade not anything I specifically wanted) and it was all over the place with power levels. It was Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire in 2006. (I think I read it much later.) It seemed like the villain, I forget his name, had to be some near god so that he would be an actual threat to the X-Men and Starjammers.
The thing I liked about AoA (IF you ignore the reveal in the 2000 AoA story) that it seemed they actually curbed most of the X-Men from their then 616 counterparts so that Apocalypse could actually feasibly be a threat and build an empire. There wasn't constant "finding" new powers or power levels. In fact Iceman was really the only one of the X-Men that actual evolved to a different level. And even then it wasn't "omgea" level or anything. And the only character, Nate Gray, that had anywhere near "omega" level powers was developed along the way as part of the plot from the beginning. Not something discovered randomly at the last minute to fill plot holes.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 19, 2023 10:27:17 GMT -5
I think it's more the characters don't have defined power levels anymore.. it's whatever the current writer wants them to be. I mean, I suppose it's always been that way to an extent, but it's much more obvious lately. Writing logical superhero fights is definitely a lost art, IMO. Superhero power levels have always been whatever the writer or editor wanted them to be. Much like pulling super-powers out of their asses because they seemed like an good idea at the time. To be fair, I read almost zero current super-hero books, but I can't see how it can be any worse than it's always been, because it's always been that way. There is nothing logical about superheroes. So that was never an artform of any sort. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 19, 2023 10:38:57 GMT -5
I think it's more the characters don't have defined power levels anymore.. it's whatever the current writer wants them to be. I mean, I suppose it's always been that way to an extent, but it's much more obvious lately. Writing logical superhero fights is definitely a lost art, IMO. Superhero power levels have always been whatever the writer or editor wanted them to be. Much like pulling super-powers out of their asses because they seemed like an good idea at the time. To be fair, I read almost zero current super-hero books, but I can't see how it can be any worse than it's always been, because it's always been that way. There is nothing logical about superheroes. So that was never an artform of any sort. Well, almost nothing.  |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Apr 19, 2023 10:43:29 GMT -5
Having characters be outright limitless in power - which is what omega-level mutant currently means, is far worse to me than simply have ill-defined limits, because at least in the latter case there still are limits.
The Jean example stems from her most recent fight with Marvel's Nightmare. She beat him last year by showing off how omega she was, and now he comes back for revenge, only for her to win instantly because her telepathy is unlimited in power, so even if he was a billion times more powerful than he was before, it would never make any difference. It would still be an absolute number versus infinity. Whereas if her limits were simply not defined, there would at least be the possibility of Nightmare being able to put a fight with some prep time or by becoming more powerful himself. There is a point where she would hit a wall, even if it isn't known exactly where that point is, and there is the potential for her to push past her limits in the most desperate moment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 10:50:06 GMT -5
That does sound bad. I mean, pro wrestling and comics need to present a scenario where, to use your words, there is at least the possibility of a character being able to put up a fight. That Jean Grey/Nightmare battle sounds predictable and lacking in any fun.
Are there any characters in fiction that haven’t pulled abilities out of their hat? RoboCop, perhaps?
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I had no idea! neat!
