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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 17, 2015 13:54:45 GMT -5
About "V" being more densely plotted, that's only true for the British part, as a result of constrains imposed by the anthology format. He made the most of it, but working your way around constrains, can hardly be translated into a virtue. Actually, I think the later chapters are far more densely plotted than the ones appearing in Warrior. The story certainly grows more elaborate and complex. When I say "densely plotted," I don't mean that the action is compacted. A change in tone and scope, absolutely. I see it more as an evolution than an inconsistency, and it works for the story, which evolves its understanding of what it means to resist tyranny throughout, evolving the reader's understanding along with Evey and, yes, Moore himself. That's certainly what I understood, what did you mean by it, then? Evolution in a creator is positive, but for a creation, it means inconsistency (i.e.. there're several degrees of quality). |
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Post by Ozymandias on Nov 17, 2015 14:04:57 GMT -5
It read like a formal examination/exercise, and a lot "colder" than things like Love & Rockets, Journey, or even Lloyd Llewellyn, which were very well done comics and their own thing. Cold? Yes, it was very intellectually driven work. I remember that was a usual argument given by college girls, to explain why they preferred DKR, which was a much more visceral approach, to revisionist superheroes. |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 17, 2015 14:08:44 GMT -5
Originally, I voted "7" and having seen the movie just recently and all the stories in the Comic Book Series - the Stories were good but I wished the artwork was a little bit better. "Better" is a very subjective term when it comes to art. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 17, 2015 15:11:21 GMT -5
The 7 on there is me, FWIW. Incidently, I think I like Millar's Jupiter's Legacy/Circle better than Watchmen (though I realize of course that without Watchmen the other never happens)... I've just never loved Alan Moore as much as it seems everyone else does.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Nov 17, 2015 16:45:04 GMT -5
I can't add much to what's already been said. Watchmen is an extraordinary collaborative effort that consistently delivers each time I pick it up.
One thing I find interesting is that Moore was initially dissuaded from using the Charlton heroes with the reasoning that Watchmen would essentially render the characters unusable, presumably forever. But then we should have a look at the various treatments nearly all of the mainstream characters from both DC and Marvel have endured/suffered in the intervening years, not a few of which make Watchmen appear positively quaint by comparison.
I'm skeptical that the Charlton heroes were as fragile as Moore's editor may have believed and I'm confident they would have survived Moore's "rough hands." I'm also glad that he was compelled to create his own original characters, as that lends more gravity, mystery, and suspense to the story. IMHO of course. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 17, 2015 16:52:47 GMT -5
I can't believe people didn't like the Black Freighter parts, those were by far my favorite sections so much so that I've picked up Watchmen several times and skipped around just reading the pirate sections.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Nov 17, 2015 16:56:33 GMT -5
That's certainly what I understood, what did you mean by it, then? The story certainly grows more elaborate and complex. Evolution in a creator is positive, but for a creation, it means inconsistency (i.e.. there're several degrees of quality). Where you see inconsistency I see progression. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Nov 17, 2015 16:59:39 GMT -5
I can't believe people didn't like the Black Freighter parts, those were by far my favorite sections so much so that I've picked up Watchmen several times and skipped around just reading the pirate sections. One could arrgh!-ue that pirate comics have never been terribly popular, nor is there avast! audience for such material. 
Sorry. I'm with you. I thought The Black Freighter was outstanding and absolutely gripping. Matey. 
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Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 17, 2015 17:04:04 GMT -5
I read Watchman much after the fact, and my appreciation of it was dulled by the countless clumsy attempts to jump on the bandwagon. After a few readings, I've come to appreciate it more, along with a number of bits that were truly ground breaking at the time. With the "Black Freighter" interludes I understand the point to them, but they were never my favorite part. They always seemed like an interruption to the story I was more interested in. I also never saw them as being in the "pirate" genre, but much more in the "horror" category with a sea-borne theme. And horror comics have never really hooked me.
As far as endings, I think both endings are where they belong. The "space squid" would never have played well to the movie going public, so Dr. Manhattan made a good substitute. And Dr. Manhattan wouldn't have been "over-the-top" enough for what was going on in the comics.
Overall, I'm saying a solid 8.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 18:26:48 GMT -5
Originally, I voted "7" and having seen the movie just recently and all the stories in the Comic Book Series - the Stories were good but I wished the artwork was a little bit better. "Better" is a very subjective term when it comes to art. I wished I could said it better. The art was average to above average - but with a series of books showcasing the Watchmen I wished the art was impressive enough that anyone wants to buy it. I brought it because I like the characters in that series. I have the Comic Books and the Hardcover as well. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 17, 2015 18:35:27 GMT -5
So ... did anybody else read the Watchmen prequels? Nobody has paid me to read it. Honestly not even Darwyn Cooke could make me read it. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 17, 2015 18:47:59 GMT -5
So ... did anybody else read the Watchmen prequels? Nobody has paid me to read it. Honestly not even Darwyn Cooke could make me read it. I highly recommend checking out the Silk Spectre series if you ever see the TPB at the library. Amanda Connor's art is great and the story is the only one out of the whole bunch that wasn't completely obsessed with showing us slightly different viewpoints of numerous scenes from the original series or with filling in gaps that nobody cared about. Young Laurie runs away from home and goes to Haight-Asbury at the height of the 1960s. I also pulled out the issue of The Comedian (#3) and the issue of Ozymandias (also #3) that I liked. I re-read Ozymandias #3 and I didn't like it so much this time around. I'm going to look at Comedian #3 later tonight. |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 18, 2015 2:22:26 GMT -5
"Better" is a very subjective term when it comes to art. I wished I could said it better. The art was average to above average - but with a series of books showcasing the Watchmen I wished the art was impressive enough that anyone wants to buy it. I brought it because I like the characters in that series. I have the Comic Books and the Hardcover as well. This is why I said it was subjective. An awful lot of people consider the art on Watchmen to be a lot better than just "above average", and a big part of why it's as great as it is. You're making the mistake of considering your personal taste in art styles to be an objective measure of quality. I love Gibbons's art on Watchmen. I think it's perfect for the book. And I very much doubt that it's ever put anyone off buying it. |
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Post by Pól Rua on Nov 18, 2015 3:13:19 GMT -5
Someone asked me if 'Watchmen' is as great as it's claimed to be, of if it's overrated.
And the answer is 'Both'.
Watchmen is amazing. I re-read it on average once a year, and each time I discover something new. It's so dense, you can turn it over and over and over again in your mind and each time, you get some new perspective or point-of-view. It's endlessly rewarding. It's the sort of thing that can spark endless complex thought processes off in my head, like a cognitive Rube Goldberg device that rebuilds itself again and again in endless new configurations.
That earns it a ten from me, whatever its flaws.
On the other hand, it gets oversold by people crowing about its more facile elements. Like a strip mine that's only willing to plunder every atom of value, but only from the first five inches of topsoil. Which is pretty much what the film felt like. Snyder managed to get a the surface elements, but the whole thing was as shallow as a puddle of piss.
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Post by unngenant on Nov 18, 2015 3:39:59 GMT -5
Watchman is like Dostoevsky in literature...Behind main plot there are such more themes in work, which all points at the end will eventually merge in one.
It is shame that they worked out for Before Watchmen, for me that is really interesting is After Watchmen...Good writing of this can make more darker version of future...with definite fall of Ozymandias...
V is for me equal novel as Watchmen...for 10.
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