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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 9, 2015 14:07:36 GMT -5
What was sort horrible about Avengers, Arthur? I can't think of anything even 1/2 as bad as Superman killing Zod. Well, Superman killing Zod is only a problem if you decide to stick with your idea of Superman. Man of Steel is a movie on its own, it tells a story, with a start, a middle and an end. If you want it to be an adaptation of one of the comics' take, fine, but I judge a movie for its own cinematographic merits, which Avengers had none : it was basically two hours of fighting and felt like a GI Joe cartoon, a way too long advertisment for toys. The story was just a pretext to make the movie while in Man of Steel's case, at least they tried to make a movie out of a story. You might not have liked that story, but it was constructed as one, which is the basics i crave when watching a movie. It sure was bleaker than your usual Superman stories, but why the heck not? It's just a take, and it made sense in the context of that take. I personnaly don't see the use of a faithfull adaptation of the 40ies Superman, we already have the comics for that, and maybe the Donner movie. Our times are much darker then the 50ies, that movie reflects that and the politics of the movies director and writers, which is quite bold in these politicly correct times. I personnaly don't really agree with those politics, but where they honnestly rendered? I dare think yes, and only for htat has the movie additionnal merit. The Avengers movie was just a mindless unimportant convoluted mess with not the slightest attempt at a message. For all those reasons, I much prefered the second Avengers movie as it was much better structured as a movie. I just wished the main villain was less of a stand up comedian... |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 9, 2015 14:09:56 GMT -5
Well, that's there we disagree. It has some lot problems, but not major for a comic book movie, nothing near the cinematic catastrophy that Avengers is.  And the somewha rocky evolution of characters s quite logical, espetially the killing of Zod. Superman is indeed at the begining of his career. And I say that having hated Watchmen, thinking that 300 is one of the worst movies of history and not bein able to continue Sucker Punch beyond the first 15 mn... I've never seen something more contrived in a movie than Jonathan Kent running into a tornado. I don't think the Avengers had anything that ludicrous. That's the thing : appart from the characters, I can't even remember a single plot point of The Avengers as it had not a single interesting one if any! That is unless if you consider fight scenes and Nick Fury that... ;-) |
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 9, 2015 14:12:31 GMT -5
I've never seen something more contrived in a movie than Jonathan Kent running into a tornado. I don't think the Avengers had anything that ludicrous. That's the thing : appart from the characters, I can't even remember a single plot point of The Avengers as it had not a single interesting one if any! That is unless if you consider fight scenes and Nick Fury that... ;-) Even if the Avengers did have very one-dimensional characters, I could at least tell you what their personalities were and what motivated them. With Man of Steel, on the other hand, there were no characters to speak of. Superman has no personality and has no motivation beyond that which is forced upon him by other characters like Jor-El and Jonathan Kent. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 9, 2015 14:25:20 GMT -5
That's the thing : appart from the characters, I can't even remember a single plot point of The Avengers as it had not a single interesting one if any! That is unless if you consider fight scenes and Nick Fury that... ;-) Even if the Avengers did have very one-dimensional characters, I could at least tell you what their personalities were and what motivated them. With Man of Steel, on the other hand, there were no characters to speak of. Superman has no personality and has no motivation beyond that which is forced upon him by other characters like Jor-El and Jonathan Kent. I didn't percieve it that way, but he is indeed a character in construction in htat movie. But again, I'm not talking about characters here : I'm talking about dramatic construction. However you liked it or not, with its merits and faults, Man of Steel was constructed like a movie, while Avengers wasn't. The later was just a confusing collection of (way too long) must-see action scenes awkwardly jointed by a pseudo script. It was just fan service with barely boobs, from start to finish, therefore impossible to enjoy for me, but to each its own |
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 9, 2015 14:28:06 GMT -5
Even if the Avengers did have very one-dimensional characters, I could at least tell you what their personalities were and what motivated them. With Man of Steel, on the other hand, there were no characters to speak of. Superman has no personality and has no motivation beyond that which is forced upon him by other characters like Jor-El and Jonathan Kent. I didn't percieve it that way, but he is indeed a character in construction in htat movie. But again, I'm not talking about characters here : I'm talking about dramatic construction. However you liked it or not, with its merits and faults, Man of Steel was constructed like a movie, while Avengers wasn't. The later was just a confusing collection of (way too long) must-see action scenes awkwardly jointed by a pseudo script. It was just fan service with barely boobs, from start to finish, therefore impossible to enjoy for me, but to each its own I see what you're saying and I respect your stance on the movie. However, from an objective film critic standpoint, Man of Steel is just as flawed from a writing perspective than The Avengers, if not more because it aims higher but falls harder. If you dig it, that's fine. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 9, 2015 16:37:24 GMT -5
OK, I see what you're saying... I can respect that. IMO, if you're not going to have the Superman in the comics in the movie, you shouldn't try to trick people and use the big Red S... that's essentially what they did, and why they didn't get any of my money.
Avengers was basically a prologue to the Marvel Movie Universe... yes, it was mostly a big fight scene.. but it was a GOOD big fight scene. It had plenty of little nuggets to make the fanboy in my happy, and it had Whedon's snappy patter(TM) which is sometime groan-inducing, but sometimes witty and even brilliant.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 9, 2015 17:06:21 GMT -5
OK, I see what you're saying... I can respect that. IMO, if you're not going to have the Superman in the comics in the movie, you shouldn't try to trick people comic fans and use the big Red S... that's essentially what they did, and why they didn't get any of my money. Avengers was basically a prologue to the Marvel Movie Universe... yes, it was mostly a big fight scene.. but it was a GOOD big fight scene. It had plenty of little nuggets to make the fanboy in my happy, and it had Whedon's snappy patter(TM) which is sometime groan-inducing, but sometimes witty and even brilliant. I agree with what you say about the avengers, but I still think it's beyond lazy, and that they could have made a decent enough movie of it, like the second one. I think it was also a bad idea to re-use a villain (Loki) that was already associated in the mainstream audiences with one specific member of the avengers : Thor already defeated him, so the whole of the avengers? piece of cake! Ah, so you didn't see Man of Steel on a big screen? Anyways, it's interesting we come to see different valid perceptions on those, even if quite opposite. |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Dec 9, 2015 17:08:50 GMT -5
Killing Zod is the least of the problems in the film. It's not like in the comics Superman has the same stringent no-kill rule as Batman. Superman killed a number of times post-crisis, most notably when he executed the phantom zone villains, but later as well. In the movie he was put in an impossible situation and he was clearly torn up about it. In fact MOS handled it better than Superman 2, where he straight up murders Zod after already removing him as a threat and laughs afterwards.
The problem with MOS (other than how they killed Jonathan Kent) was that it didn't bother to properly explore the ideas and themes it raised and instead left them half-baked.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 9, 2015 17:22:10 GMT -5
Quite agree with you. The movie could have been much better if more subtle in its second arc, but it went full epic summer block-buster then, and half sacrificed some of its most interesting hints. Yet, even if a little frustrating, it was quite dramatic, and even if the movie wasen't aimed specifically at comic fans, as such, we should be the ones to appreciate his moral dilema the best when forced to kill Zod. An older and wiser Superman miht have come up with a less drastic solution, but that's not yet who he is in this movie, maybe soon, with Bats "teachings".
I personnaly has no problem in how they killed Jonathan Kent, there even was a nice echo to it later in the movie if I remember correctly.
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Post by dupersuper on Dec 9, 2015 19:07:53 GMT -5
Killing Zod is the least of the problems in the film. It's not like in the comics Superman has the same stringent no-kill rule as Batman. Superman killed a number of times post-crisis, most notably when he executed the phantom zone villains, but later as well. In the movie he was put in an impossible situation and he was clearly torn up about it. In fact MOS handled it better than Superman 2, where he straight up murders Zod after already removing him as a threat and laughs afterwards. The problem with MOS (other than how they killed Jonathan Kent) was that it didn't bother to properly explore the ideas and themes it raised and instead left them half-baked. Who, other than the Phantom Zone criminals (which in my head-canon was retconned by Legion of Three Worlds), did post-Crisis Superman kill? Doomsday? Hopelessness? Cynicism? No one will ever convince me - lifetime Superman fanboy though I am - that I wouldn't rather watch Avengers over Man of Steel any day of the week. Also, based only on the brief glimpse we see in the trailer, I honestly think the Smallville Doomsday looked much better (which is truly shaming, considering their comparative budgets). All of that being said, of course I'll be seeing it. I hope it's better than I fear. If worse comes to worst, at least it'll be sandwiched between Star Wars episode 7 and Captain America: Civil War in me theater-going experience (at least I think so: is Deadpool in there?), so I'm confident I'll be overall very entertained this movie-going season. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Dec 10, 2015 0:27:20 GMT -5
Hey, I love Superman too, ever since I saw the Donner movie back in the mid eighties, and have a healthy amount of superman books, probably more by the time I say goodbye, but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy different takes on him, however distant from the 40ies one. But the thing is I would never go to the cinema because I'm a fan. If that was the case I know I'd never get as much joy from it then from reading the actual books. ah well... hahaha
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Post by Dizzy D on Feb 8, 2016 14:21:30 GMT -5
You know, I actually like this one:
There's a Metropolis one as well.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Feb 8, 2016 15:06:34 GMT -5
You know, I actually like this one: There's a Metropolis one as well. Yeah, it was fun and I like Aflec's Bruce Wayne. |
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Post by Warmonger on Feb 8, 2016 19:59:39 GMT -5
I'm trying to muster up the excitement, but I just can't...
Much more anxious for the 2nd season of Daredevil.
I still maintain that if DC was really so interested in doing a "Batman vs Superman" film adaptation, what they really should've done to blow everyone's tits off is make a "Dark Knight Returns" adaptation with someone other than Zack "The Hack" Snyder in charge (George Miller?), re-cast Affleck as Michael Keaton (especially after Keat's being re-introduced into the limelight via 'Birdman') as an aged, cynical Bruce Wayne/Batman and ditch the whole "Triple Team" angle with Bats, Supes and Wonder Woman against Doomsday.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 20:44:08 GMT -5
Final trailer hit this morning and the Batman action sequences in it are the best thing I've seen related to this movie. However, there's starting to be scuttlebutt now that Warner's is worried how this movie is going to perform and if it doesn't meet expectations (they are hoping it pulls in a billion, yes a billion) it might jeopardize the slate of DC movies that haven't started filming yet, including the Justice League movie. review of trailer/rumors of WB concerns-M |
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And the somewha rocky evolution of characters s quite logical, espetially the killing of Zod. Superman is indeed at the begining of his career.
