shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,932
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2022 6:03:48 GMT -5
Hallelujah! I just read Avengers #243. I began collecting and then reading Avengers #80-300 probably six years ago, but after issue #200, I began losing interest fast (and thus reading much much slower!), and the last incarnation of the team that I'd been reading (Wasp as chairwoman, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Starfox, Vision, and Scarlet Witch) really wasn't doing anything for me. I respected the choice to have an Avengers team utterly dominated by women for once, but none of the characterizations were working for me at all. I don't think I've ever been more excited for a roster shake-up, and having Vision as chairman will definitely present new directions for internal character arcs. Here's hoping it's all upwards from here... He's a smart synthezoid. I'm sure it'll be a smooth, totally uneventful tenure as chairman.  |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 18, 2022 8:19:11 GMT -5
Hallelujah! I just read Avengers #243. I began collecting and then reading Avengers #80-300 probably six years ago, but after issue #200, I began losing interest fast (and thus reading much much slower!), and the last incarnation of the team that I'd been reading (Wasp as chairwoman, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Starfox, Vision, and Scarlet Witch) really wasn't doing anything for me. I respected the choice to have an Avengers team utterly dominated by women for once, but none of the characterizations were working for me at all. I don't think I've ever been more excited for a roster shake-up, and having Vision as chairman will definitely present new directions for internal character arcs. Here's hoping it's all upwards from here... You didn't like the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run? Many consider that one of the best for that title. |
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Oct 18, 2022 9:50:55 GMT -5
Captain America #395-#409
Been binge reading Captain America again (big surprise). Don't have much to comment on except the Cap-Wolf storyline, pretty interesting stuff and wouldn't have felt out of place in 70's Marvel
A lot of people on here are probably going to chastise me for this, but I've actually been skipping the back-up stories after so many of them went no-where or at least that's how I felt
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,932
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2022 11:40:11 GMT -5
Hallelujah! I just read Avengers #243. I began collecting and then reading Avengers #80-300 probably six years ago, but after issue #200, I began losing interest fast (and thus reading much much slower!), and the last incarnation of the team that I'd been reading (Wasp as chairwoman, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Starfox, Vision, and Scarlet Witch) really wasn't doing anything for me. I respected the choice to have an Avengers team utterly dominated by women for once, but none of the characterizations were working for me at all. I don't think I've ever been more excited for a roster shake-up, and having Vision as chairman will definitely present new directions for internal character arcs. Here's hoping it's all upwards from here... You didn't like the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run? Many consider that one of the best for that title. In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 18, 2022 12:43:26 GMT -5
You didn't like the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run? Many consider that one of the best for that title. In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? Siege!The Savage Land. Tom Palmer's glorious finishes on Buscema's layouts. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,932
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2022 14:26:21 GMT -5
Siege!The Savage Land. Tom Palmer's glorious finishes on Buscema's layouts. I'm not up to either of those yet, but I have high hopes. |
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Oct 18, 2022 14:33:55 GMT -5
You didn't like the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run? Many consider that one of the best for that title. In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? To me, the Avengers hits a rough patch of about a dozen or so issues starting with #200 (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,932
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2022 14:37:06 GMT -5
In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? To me, the Avengers hits a rough patch of about a dozen or so issues starting with #200 (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. Well it sounds like Stern still hasn't hit his high point yet, so that gives me confidence that the run will continue to get better. I chose to stop at #300 because several folks suggested that the Avengers went downhill fast only a handful of issues earlier, so I figured why not make it an even number? |
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Oct 18, 2022 17:36:53 GMT -5
Hallelujah! I just read Avengers #243. I began collecting and then reading Avengers #80-300 probably six years ago, but after issue #200, I began losing interest fast (and thus reading much much slower!), and the last incarnation of the team that I'd been reading (Wasp as chairwoman, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, Starfox, Vision, and Scarlet Witch) really wasn't doing anything for me. I respected the choice to have an Avengers team utterly dominated by women for once, but none of the characterizations were working for me at all. I don't think I've ever been more excited for a roster shake-up, and having Vision as chairman will definitely present new directions for internal character arcs. Here's hoping it's all upwards from here... You didn't like the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run? Many consider that one of the best for that title. Just to be clear, John Buscema & Tom Palmer didn't join up with Stern until about a year after Avengers #243. So the period shaxper is up to is Stern plus other artists. I'd recommend the Stern/Buscema/Palmer period. I've actually read the end of that run, where Stern gets forced out, and the period shax is reading with the last year or so, but it's been a few years since I've read the core of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 18, 2022 17:38:02 GMT -5
Did a re-read of Chaykin's 1986 Shadow mini-series for the first time in at least 20 years. I'll cop to being a big fan of Chaykin's work and this is no exception. I know that the book has been controversial over the years, but I'm not sure I can quite figure out why. It's been derided for it's violence, but it was a "mature readers" book...and The Shadow was plenty violent in his pulp incarnation. Allard/Shadow was a man out of time so the misogyny is not inappropriate for the character. I guess I can kind of see the Cranston reveal (which was telegraphed miles and miles away) being off-putting to some. And the slaughter of the operatives. But none of it bugged me. I thought it was a perfectly cromulent updating of a pulp hero to the 80s.  |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,932
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2022 23:59:57 GMT -5
In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? To me, the Avengers hits a rough patch of about a dozen or so issues starting with #200 (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. I've been musing on this some more, and I think it was issue #213 that took the run in the wrong direction for me. Once Hank Pym began to fall apart, it was a turning point for the title that it hasn't managed to recover from until now, in which the "good ol' days" of the Avengers began to exist clearly in the past as opposed to in the present or future. Beast and Wonderman leaving the team only two issues earlier really added to that feeling of loss and transition. And suddenly we had all these newbies joining who never quite clicked -- Tigra, She-Hulk, Starfox, and even a post-Pym Janet Van Dyne. Monica Rambau is the only new Avenger introduced during this stretch that felt "right" on the team, and I think that's just because Stern was pushing so hard for her. Worse yet, while there'd been new members who were iffy in the past, there'd always been a solid core and consistency to the group that didn't tend to get disrupted by the addition of new members. Swordsman and Mantis could show up and not quite jibe, but they didn't dilute the soul and identity of the team. Post issue #213, that core is far less stable and far more shaken by the coming and going of members.  Roster as of #211 vs roster as of #235Vision being in charge gives a sense of familiarity and permanence back to the team, even if we know he can't be trusted right now. On some level, we believe he will eventually revert to familiar territory. That wasn't true when Wasp was leading. I so saluted what Stern was trying to do with her--having her grow through her experience to find strength and independence--but I just didn't know or feel any familiarity with that character, and while Stern made me sympathize with her, he didn't do much to make me like her. Anyway, that's how I've been feeling about this stretch. Fortunately, it's already improving with the roster shake-up that just happened, and good storylines appear to be on the horizon. |
|
|
|
Post by dbutler69 on Oct 19, 2022 10:43:36 GMT -5
To me, the Avengers hits a rough patch of about a dozen or so issues starting with #200 (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. Well it sounds like Stern still hasn't hit his high point yet, so that gives me confidence that the run will continue to get better. I chose to stop at #300 because several folks suggested that the Avengers went downhill fast only a handful of issues earlier, so I figured why not make it an even number? I basically agree that Avengers went downhill fast at #300, though I would actually say that the decline happened a little bit earlier than that. Still, 300 is a pretty good place to stop. |
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Oct 19, 2022 12:13:27 GMT -5
Well it sounds like Stern still hasn't hit his high point yet, so that gives me confidence that the run will continue to get better. I chose to stop at #300 because several folks suggested that the Avengers went downhill fast only a handful of issues earlier, so I figured why not make it an even number? I basically agree that Avengers went downhill fast at #300, though I would actually say that the decline happened a little bit earlier than that. Still, 300 is a pretty good place to stop. I was thinking of getting the Avengers: Acts of Vengeance Epic Collection that starts shortly. What a buzzkill. I only read a few sporadic post-300 issues of Avengers vol. 1 at the time it came out, and I've really stopped at #300 in my back issue purchase (though I do have another Epic Collection in my To Read Pile). |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 19, 2022 12:39:54 GMT -5
In my mind, it's all been downhill since Englehart left. I was still enjoying it up through #199. It's been rough for me ever since. I haven't found any characters worth latching on to, and most of the adventures have been forgettable to me. What am I missing that everyone else finds so praise-worthy? (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. ...And of course, with my usual impeccable timing, that's when I subscribed!!! Fully agree on the rough patch. I had sent my subscription coupon after reading the Red Ronin issues, and in no time I was treated to things like The Weathermen!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 19, 2022 12:53:12 GMT -5
To me, the Avengers hits a rough patch of about a dozen or so issues starting with #200 (though I think #201 was very good) then Shooter does some issues which are pretty good, then Stern shows up for a long run which was excellent, then the series really goes downhill after he left. I've been musing on this some more, and I think it was issue #213 that took the run in the wrong direction for me. Once Hank Pym began to fall apart, it was a turning point for the title that it hasn't managed to recover from until now, in which the "good ol' days" of the Avengers began to exist clearly in the past as opposed to in the present or future. Beast and Wonderman leaving the team only two issues earlier really added to that feeling of loss and transition. And suddenly we had all these newbies joining who never quite clicked -- Tigra, She-Hulk, Starfox, and even a post-Pym Janet Van Dyne. Monica Rambau is the only new Avenger introduced during this stretch that felt "right" on the team, and I think that's just because Stern was pushing so hard for her. Worse yet, while there'd been new members who were iffy in the past, there'd always been a solid core and consistency to the group that didn't tend to get disrupted by the addition of new members. Swordsman and Mantis could show up and not quite jibe, but they didn't dilute the soul and identity of the team. Post issue #213, that core is far less stable and far more shaken by the coming and going of members. Roster as of #211 vs roster as of #235Vision being in charge gives a sense of familiarity and permanence back to the team, even if we know he can't be trusted right now. On some level, we believe he will eventually revert to familiar territory. That wasn't true when Wasp was leading. I so saluted what Stern was trying to do with her--having her grow through her experience to find strength and independence--but I just didn't know or feel any familiarity with that character, and while Stern made me sympathize with her, he didn't do much to make me like her. Anyway, that's how I've been feeling about this stretch. Fortunately, it's already improving with the roster shake-up that just happened, and good storylines appear to be on the horizon. That's interesting. I had never really thought about it, but I think you're spot on about the familiarity and permanence aspect being important. In fact, I'd add that the creation of the West Coast Avengers probably amplified the franchise's loss of cohesion; with so many heroes calling themselves Avengers, it wasn't so special anymore to be part of the team (and writers felt free to change the roster more often). Looking at the corner logo up there, I think "those are the Avengers!!!", a feeling I'd never have for most of the heroes who started joining the team from that point on. Not that I'm against adding new blood from time to time, on the contrary. But to be an Avenger should be something special, and I want the newcomers to really be A-list material. (Deathcry, Silverclaw, Rage, Lionheart, Triathlon, Gilgamesh... they didn't exactly set the world on fire, did they?) She-Hulk and Captain Marvel, however, were a perfect fit for the team. |
|
