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Post by tingramretro on Mar 14, 2016 2:31:32 GMT -5
No, it is your opinion that it was a mess. You appear to be confusing your own opinions with objective fact. It is my opinion that, while by no means a seamless and perfectly realized structure (which it never could have been) the post Crisis DCU was in the main pretty successful and not what I would have called "a mess". And I believe my opinion to be as valid as yours. Depends on the character involved methinks. Hawkman, All Star Squadron, Legion Of Super-Heroes...a total chaotic mess!!! Again, disagree. I wasn't really reading LSH, but I thought Roy Thomas did a great job with giving the Golden Age characters a cohesive history that retained as much past continuity as possible. I still reread that stuff regularly, and still love it. I see no problems with it. as for Hawkman, neither the Golden Age or the Silver Age Hawkman was affected by the Crisis in any way at all, so I don't see how Hawkman at the time could be described as "a chaotic mess". The Hawkworld reboot didn't happen until three years later and was totally unconnected. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 14, 2016 2:40:01 GMT -5
Depends on the character involved methinks. Hawkman, All Star Squadron, Legion Of Super-Heroes...a total chaotic mess!!! Again, disagree. I wasn't really reading LSH, but I thought Roy Thomas did a great job with giving the Golden Age characters a cohesive history that retained as much past continuity as possible. I still reread that stuff regularly, and still love it. I see no problems with it. as for Hawkman, neither the Golden Age or the Silver Age Hawkman was affected by the Crisis in any way at all, so I don't see how Hawkman at the time could be described as "a chaotic mess". The Hawkworld reboot didn't happen until three years later and was totally unconnected. All Star Squadron after the Crisis had to back track and make believe Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman were not around in the Golden Age and then make up replica characters to take their place..That was quite messy to me. If you think that was seamless storytelling, your in a minority from people I know who were faithful readers at that time. But as they and you say..it's your opinion |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 14, 2016 2:55:29 GMT -5
Again, disagree. I wasn't really reading LSH, but I thought Roy Thomas did a great job with giving the Golden Age characters a cohesive history that retained as much past continuity as possible. I still reread that stuff regularly, and still love it. I see no problems with it. as for Hawkman, neither the Golden Age or the Silver Age Hawkman was affected by the Crisis in any way at all, so I don't see how Hawkman at the time could be described as "a chaotic mess". The Hawkworld reboot didn't happen until three years later and was totally unconnected. All Star Squadron after the Crisis had to back track and make believe Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman were not around in the Golden Age and then make up replica characters to take their place..That was quite messy to me. If you think that was seamless storytelling, your in a minority from people I know who were faithful readers at that time. But as they and you say..it's your opinion I was a faithful reader at that time, and as someone whose primary interest in DC had always been the Earth Two characters, I still thought Roy's solution was a pretty good one, which opened up a lot of story possibiities. I actually really enjoyed Young All-Stars. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2016 11:50:08 GMT -5
No, it is your opinion that it was a mess. You appear to be confusing your own opinions with objective fact. It is my opinion that, while by no means a seamless and perfectly realized structure (which it never could have been) the post Crisis DCU was in the main pretty successful and not what I would have called "a mess". And I believe my opinion to be as valid as yours. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether post-(Crisis/Zero Hour/Another Crisis/Yet Another Crisis/Rebirth/Dan DiDio's lunch) is or isn't a mess, if it is perceived as an impenetrable mess by potential readers then DC have a big problem - it's certainly my perception that DC's continuity is a massive dog's breakfast, has been for many years and that DC have little idea how to rectify it. I genuinely have not a clue what is and isn't in continuity any more, what Superman's back-story is, who is Batman's sidekick is or how many he's had. In times past, every kid on the playground with the remotest interest in comics could have told you that, and certainly any comics nerd could, even if they weren't particularly interested in DC comics.In fairness, some of the same could be said about current Marvel, where there are multiple versions of many iconic characters - but Marvel general seem to be able to loop back and re-centre their universe without the monumental clusterfudging that DC seem to repeatedly impose on theirs. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 14, 2016 14:21:36 GMT -5
No, it is your opinion that it was a mess. You appear to be confusing your own opinions with objective fact. It is my opinion that, while by no means a seamless and perfectly realized structure (which it never could have been) the post Crisis DCU was in the main pretty successful and not what I would have called "a mess". And I believe my opinion to be as valid as yours. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether post-(Crisis/Zero Hour/Another Crisis/Yet Another Crisis/Rebirth/Dan DiDio's lunch) is or isn't a mess, if it is perceived as an impenetrable mess by potential readers then DC have a big problem Ah, yes. "Received wisdom". Always a problem. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 14, 2016 16:21:14 GMT -5
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether post-(Crisis/Zero Hour/Another Crisis/Yet Another Crisis/Rebirth/Dan DiDio's lunch) is or isn't a mess, if it is perceived as an impenetrable mess by potential readers then DC have a big problem Ah, yes. "Received wisdom". Always a problem. The final vote is in the sales. Young All Stars=A Turn Off to the All Star Squadron Faithful=Cancelation In Less Than 3 Years |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 15, 2016 2:05:24 GMT -5
Ah, yes. "Received wisdom". Always a problem. The final vote is in the sales. Young All Stars=A Turn Off to the All Star Squadron Faithful=Cancelation In Less Than 3 Years There have been any number of excellent titles and runs that lasted less than three years before cancellation. Quality isn't always appreciated. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2016 4:13:22 GMT -5
In fairness, 3 years is a pretty decent run by modern standards, when series outside the main hard-core are lucky to get issue numbers into double digits.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 15, 2016 10:09:06 GMT -5
In fairness, 3 years is a pretty decent run by modern standards, when series outside the main hard-core are lucky to get issue numbers into double digits. Correct. However we where talking about Crisis' effects on the readership , not someone's perceived quality of the product. All Star Squadron was a long running and very popular series before The Crisis. Some much so that DC wanted it to continue even the The Crisis made a mess of the very basis of the book. And of course, all those who enjoyed the series previously would continue to buy it plus more would join since it had a magic #1. But for whatever reasons, it slowly began to bleed readership and fell so far down it had to get cancelled. Not impressive at all for a book that was already well established . Thats what Crisis did to this particular series and thats what the conversation was about |
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 15, 2016 22:33:28 GMT -5
In fairness, 3 years is a pretty decent run by modern standards, when series outside the main hard-core are lucky to get issue numbers into double digits. Correct. However we where talking about Crisis' effects on the readership , not someone's perceived quality of the product. All Star Squadron was a long running and very popular series before The Crisis. Some much so that DC wanted it to continue even the The Crisis made a mess of the very basis of the book. And of course, all those who enjoyed the series previously would continue to buy it plus more would join since it had a magic #1. But for whatever reasons, it slowly began to bleed readership and fell so far down it had to get cancelled. Not impressive at all for a book that was already well established . Thats what Crisis did to this particular series and thats what the conversation was about I'm not sure you can so confidently conclude it was the Crisis that killed Young All Stars 3 or 4 years after the fact... |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 16, 2016 2:14:37 GMT -5
Correct. However we where talking about Crisis' effects on the readership , not someone's perceived quality of the product. All Star Squadron was a long running and very popular series before The Crisis. Some much so that DC wanted it to continue even the The Crisis made a mess of the very basis of the book. And of course, all those who enjoyed the series previously would continue to buy it plus more would join since it had a magic #1. But for whatever reasons, it slowly began to bleed readership and fell so far down it had to get cancelled. Not impressive at all for a book that was already well established . Thats what Crisis did to this particular series and thats what the conversation was about I'm not sure you can so confidently conclude it was the Crisis that killed Young All Stars 3 or 4 years after the fact... Seemed like a bit of a stretch to me, too. Much like the earlier assertion that Crisis somehow messed up Hawkman continuity more than three years after it ended, and despite there having been an entire Hawkman series published in the meantime. I think someone's memory is faulty. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 16, 2016 2:18:23 GMT -5
Well then whats your theory on Young All Stars cancellation then. Same writer, same premise. Offer something up
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 16, 2016 2:53:58 GMT -5
After 60 or so issues of All-Star Squadron, 3+ years of Young All-Stars and various specials, minis and guest spots, it had run its course and sales reflected that? It couldn't compete with new wave titles like New Teen Titans, X-Men et al? A book by Thomas compared with such titles and after Watchmen, DKR, et al seemed old-fashioned and sales reflected that? Sales weren't good enough to justify the prestige format it was printed in (the most expensive books on the subscription ads back in the day)? Thomas lost interest and pulled the plug himself? An editor or editors didn't like the book or didn't feel it fit the direction they were going in? I honestly have no idea, but see no reason to attribute it to the Crisis story years earlier.
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 16, 2016 4:47:20 GMT -5
Well then whats your theory on Young All Stars cancellation then. Same writer, same premise. Offer something up Counting All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars as basically the same book, there had been 98 issues over the course of nine years. More than a third of that was post-Crisis. It came to the end of its natural life. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 16, 2016 11:24:00 GMT -5
Well then whats your theory on Young All Stars cancellation then. Same writer, same premise. Offer something up Counting All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars as basically the same book, there had been 98 issues over the course of nine years. More than a third of that was post-Crisis. It came to the end of its natural life. I wouldn't consider them basically the same book. Young All-Stars was a spin-off from the All-Star Squadron and featured totally different main characters. It's no more the same book than Young Avengers is the same as the Avengers. |
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