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Post by dupersuper on Mar 16, 2016 19:33:37 GMT -5
Counting All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars as basically the same book, there had been 98 issues over the course of nine years. More than a third of that was post-Crisis. It came to the end of its natural life. I wouldn't consider them basically the same book. Young All-Stars was a spin-off from the All-Star Squadron and featured totally different main characters. It's no more the same book than Young Avengers is the same as the Avengers. Did Young Avengers and Avengers have the same writer and setting?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 21:56:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't consider them basically the same book. Young All-Stars was a spin-off from the All-Star Squadron and featured totally different main characters. It's no more the same book than Young Avengers is the same as the Avengers. Did Young Avengers and Avengers have the same writer and setting? If Roy Thomas was writing Sgt. Rock also set in WWII (same writer and same setting) would that have been the same series as All Star Squadron too? -M
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 16, 2016 22:51:19 GMT -5
Did Young Avengers and Avengers have the same writer and setting? If Roy Thomas was writing Sgt. Rock also set in WWII (same writer and same setting) would that have been the same series as All Star Squadron too? -M Green Lantern or Firebrand probably would've shown up before long...
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 17, 2016 20:15:00 GMT -5
If Roy Thomas was writing Sgt. Rock also set in WWII (same writer and same setting) would that have been the same series as All Star Squadron too? -M Green Lantern or Firebrand probably would've shown up before long... Ok, I get the joke, but I gotta be pedantic. Roy, both as a writer and editor, was never really about mixing genres. When he was EIC of Marvel there were only a handful of crossovers between his horror and superhero books - and no Golden Age supes showed up in his Sgt. Fury, or superheroes in his Conan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 22:47:00 GMT -5
Looks like Scott Snyder is off Detective before Rebirth even launches. DC decided to double ship it, Snyder won't do a double-shipped book because of teaching and creator-owned commitments, so he won't be doing a regular book for DC. He does have some special monthly projects in the works for them.
Thus we see some of the double edge sword nature of bi-weekly books-you can chase off popular talent that is a proven seller for you in he hopes of moving more units, but you could lose sales if the name is driving some of the sales. We'll see how it plays out.
-M
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Post by Gene on Mar 21, 2016 14:30:21 GMT -5
Looks like Scott Snyder is off Detective before Rebirth even launches. DC decided to double ship it, Snyder won't do a double-shipped book because of teaching and creator-owned commitments, so he won't be doing a regular book for DC. He does have some special monthly projects in the works for them. Thus we see some of the double edge sword nature of bi-weekly books-you can chase off popular talent that is a proven seller for you in he hopes of moving more units, but you could lose sales if the name is driving some of the sales. We'll see how it plays out. -M Quality be damned when there's that sweet, sweet marketshare on the line.
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Golddragon71
Full Member
Immortal avatar of the Dragon Race The Golden Dragon
Posts: 343
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Post by Golddragon71 on Mar 21, 2016 15:52:33 GMT -5
I gor into comics well after the Crsis. I started with Batman which has always been somewhat insulated from the massive changes going on around him. (A re-telling of his own origin as well as a revised version of the transition from Dick Grayson to Jason todd as Robin were all that ere made.) When i got into college I was introduced to the Flash, Green Lantern and Justice League (again, small changes The Previous flash had died, Wally West now wore the suit and name, Hal Jordan's temples went Grey, and the justice league's roster and tone had shifted to suit a new generation.) I later learned of some shifts that were cause for much greater confusion
Wonder Woman: while both her origin and Superman's were given an update and modernized re-telling while keeping many of the bullet points the same, Superman's origin placed him at being the First of the Second Generation of Heroes (including Hal as GL Barry as Flash etc...) whereas Wonder Woman's reboot left her out of the First Few Years of the Modernized "Silver Age" so that she would not be around as a founding member of the Justice league.
Hawkworld: This series was also designed to reboot a classic character and like Wonder Woman's reboot it shifted Katar Hol's debut until well after Crisis which meant that the hawkman and Hawkgirl who had been part of the Justice League International's earlier issues, no longer were the Katar and Shayera they were originally depicted as, but Carter and Shiera Hall...but then it was found they weren't available to be in JLI due to a battle in Limbo so then it was two others (whose names escape me at present) posing as Carter and Shiera and being Called Katar and Shayera....(yeah! that's a mess!)
Still, despite all that, I was fairly insulated from continuity headaches. (at least until Zero Hour) (Unlike one guy in one of my comic shops who thought that Martian Manhunter had been retroactively added to the Justice League archives just so that DC could say J'onn was always a member of the League)
I've never made any bones about the fact that I was unenthusiastic about the New52 (particularly in it's treatment of Wally West) I bought all the number 1's that year but only about half of the books made it to issue 2 and only a handful of books made it to the First anniversary At present there's about 4 of the 2011 originals i can count that carry the distinction of not having a single issue missed. (Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern and Justice League) I do feel however that DC made a major misstep by all but flat-out saying "Get out of here all you old-timers! we only want new readers! You mean nothing to us!" (That's like getting dumped by a husband or wife after your 25th anniversary just because they suddenly saw a wrinkle in the mirror!)
Still, I'll at least stick around through the Rebirth to see what pops! (worst case scenario? My weekly purchases will be mostly 80's-90's books on comixology (I just got into L.E.G.I.O.N.!))
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 21, 2016 17:43:06 GMT -5
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 21, 2016 18:22:05 GMT -5
I gor into comics well after the Crsis. I started with Batman which has always been somewhat insulated from the massive changes going on around him. (A re-telling of his own origin as well as a revised version of the transition from Dick Grayson to Jason todd as Robin were all that ere made.) When i got into college I was introduced to the Flash, Green Lantern and Justice League (again, small changes The Previous flash had died, Wally West now wore the suit and name, Hal Jordan's temples went Grey, and the justice league's roster and tone had shifted to suit a new generation.) I later learned of some shifts that were cause for much greater confusion Wonder Woman: while both her origin and Superman's were given an update and modernized re-telling while keeping many of the bullet points the same, Superman's origin placed him at being the First of the Second Generation of Heroes (including Hal as GL Barry as Flash etc...) whereas Wonder Woman's reboot left her out of the First Few Years of the Modernized "Silver Age" so that she would not be around as a founding member of the Justice league. Hawkworld: This series was also designed to reboot a classic character and like Wonder Woman's reboot it shifted Katar Hol's debut until well after Crisis which meant that the hawkman and Hawkgirl who had been part of the Justice League International's earlier issues, no longer were the Katar and Shayera they were originally depicted as, but Carter and Shiera Hall...but then it was found they weren't available to be in JLI due to a battle in Limbo so then it was two others (whose names escape me at present) posing as Carter and Shiera and being Called Katar and Shayera....(yeah! that's a mess!) Sorry, but this is not correct. Following Crisis, both the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawks were still in continuity, though Carter and Shiera were quickly shuffled off to Limbo with the JSA. When the Hawkworld reboot occurred, Carter and Shiera had been gone for over two years, there was never any question of their having been in JLI. The continuity implant Hawks from JLI were Fel Andar and Sharon Parker, posing as Carter Hall Junior and Sharon Hall, they were never intended to be the original Carter and Shiera.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 21, 2016 18:34:52 GMT -5
I gor into comics well after the Crsis. I started with Batman which has always been somewhat insulated from the massive changes going on around him. (A re-telling of his own origin as well as a revised version of the transition from Dick Grayson to Jason todd as Robin were all that ere made.) When i got into college I was introduced to the Flash, Green Lantern and Justice League (again, small changes The Previous flash had died, Wally West now wore the suit and name, Hal Jordan's temples went Grey, and the justice league's roster and tone had shifted to suit a new generation.) I later learned of some shifts that were cause for much greater confusion Wonder Woman: while both her origin and Superman's were given an update and modernized re-telling while keeping many of the bullet points the same, Superman's origin placed him at being the First of the Second Generation of Heroes (including Hal as GL Barry as Flash etc...) whereas Wonder Woman's reboot left her out of the First Few Years of the Modernized "Silver Age" so that she would not be around as a founding member of the Justice league. Hawkworld: This series was also designed to reboot a classic character and like Wonder Woman's reboot it shifted Katar Hol's debut until well after Crisis which meant that the hawkman and Hawkgirl who had been part of the Justice League International's earlier issues, no longer were the Katar and Shayera they were originally depicted as, but Carter and Shiera Hall...but then it was found they weren't available to be in JLI due to a battle in Limbo so then it was two others (whose names escape me at present) posing as Carter and Shiera and being Called Katar and Shayera....(yeah! that's a mess!) Sorry, but this is not correct. Following Crisis, both the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawks were still in continuity, though Carter and Shiera were quickly shuffled off to Limbo with the JSA. When the Hawkworld reboot occurred, Carter and Shiera had been gone for over two years, there was never any question of their having been in JLI. The continuity implant Hawks from JLI were Fel Andar and Sharon Parker, posing as Carter Hall Junior and Sharon Hall, they were never intended to be the original Carter and Shiera. Sorry, but this is not correct. Crisis afforded DC the opportunity to reboot all their characters. But it didn't happen immediately. Wonder Woman was rebooted and got her own series a year after Crisis occurred. Still it was the Crisis that was the impetus. Even Superman took a bit of time after Crisis. Hawkman as a less important character and no need to rush so it took 2 years but it was still Crisis change-related
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Mar 21, 2016 20:31:59 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is not correct. Following Crisis, both the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawks were still in continuity, though Carter and Shiera were quickly shuffled off to Limbo with the JSA. When the Hawkworld reboot occurred, Carter and Shiera had been gone for over two years, there was never any question of their having been in JLI. The continuity implant Hawks from JLI were Fel Andar and Sharon Parker, posing as Carter Hall Junior and Sharon Hall, they were never intended to be the original Carter and Shiera. Sorry, but this is not correct. Crisis afforded DC the opportunity to reboot all their characters. But it didn't happen immediately. Wonder Woman was rebooted and got her own series a year after Crisis occurred. Still it was the Crisis that was the impetus. Even Superman took a bit of time after Crisis. Hawkman as a less important character and no need to rush so it took 2 years but it was still Crisis change-related Yes. The term "Post-Crisis" is a bit of a misnomer, as none of the reboots occurred until the publication of Legends a year later.
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 22, 2016 2:06:00 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is not correct. Following Crisis, both the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawks were still in continuity, though Carter and Shiera were quickly shuffled off to Limbo with the JSA. When the Hawkworld reboot occurred, Carter and Shiera had been gone for over two years, there was never any question of their having been in JLI. The continuity implant Hawks from JLI were Fel Andar and Sharon Parker, posing as Carter Hall Junior and Sharon Hall, they were never intended to be the original Carter and Shiera. Sorry, but this is not correct. Crisis afforded DC the opportunity to reboot all their characters. But it didn't happen immediately. Wonder Woman was rebooted and got her own series a year after Crisis occurred. Still it was the Crisis that was the impetus. Even Superman took a bit of time after Crisis. Hawkman as a less important character and no need to rush so it took 2 years but it was still Crisis change-related You are wrong. It was in no way Crisis related. The Silver Age Hawkman actually got his own book again after the Crisis ended, and it lasted almost a year and a half. Then he was brought into JLI. The first Hawkworld series wasn't published until 1989, three years after Crisis ended, and it was originally intended to be simply a "Hawkman: Year One" story. It wasn't until 1990, four years after Crisis, that DC decided, based on the success of the limited series, to make it the starting point for a full reboot of the character. And the continuity implants that reveled the JLI Hawks to be the faux Carter Jnr and Sharon- not Carter and Shiera-came even later, in 1992. If you seriously imagine this was all a result of the Crisis, you have a touching but naive faith in DC editorial's ability to make long term plans.
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 22, 2016 2:09:44 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is not correct. Crisis afforded DC the opportunity to reboot all their characters. But it didn't happen immediately. Wonder Woman was rebooted and got her own series a year after Crisis occurred. Still it was the Crisis that was the impetus. Even Superman took a bit of time after Crisis. Hawkman as a less important character and no need to rush so it took 2 years but it was still Crisis change-related Yes. The term "Post-Crisis" is a bit of a misnomer, as none of the reboots occurred until the publication of Legends a year later. Superman did. October 1986.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 5:54:27 GMT -5
The first real attempt to codify what changed and what didn't in the wake of Crisis was the 2 issue History of the DC Universe by Wolfman and Perez. Giordano and Khan were smart enough to realize (unlike today's folks at DC or Marvel) that if you try to relaunch too much at the same tiome it all gets lost in the shuffle. By staggering the relaunches/revamps you gave each one time in the sun and the attention it needed to get off the ground and build an audience before the next new/shiny thing distracted fans and bled off audience. Too much at the same time and nothing really gains an audience/traction. So Crisis hit and in the immediate aftermath they looked to redo Superman and it took time to get all the ducks in the row-find the right creative team (and hire Byrne away from Marvel) settle on direction/tone etc. and such, and they decided (based comments by Giordano in the fan press and his presentation at a shop appearance I met him at in June of 1986-the week Watchmen #1 went on sale) their plan was to address the big iconic characters one at a time and do their due diligence to get it right rather than try to do everything at once and slapdash it all to get it all done as a monolithic change. He called it their five year plan with History of the DCU and Legends being the cornerstones of the foundation of the new DCU they were building.
So while some of the changes were not immediate, pretty much everything DC was doing in the period from 1986-1991 was part of that 5 year plan to remake the DCU in the wake of Crisis aftermath. Giordano and Khan did not see Crisis as the beginning of a cycle of reboots, their vision was to do it once and set up DC for the next 50 years-didn't work out that way, but the Post-Crisis DCU was an emerging process that took them several years to implement, they didn't have it all set to go as one monolithic entity as soon as the 12 issue mini was done. The transition period was messy as they were still figuring some of the things out, they were considering multiple pitches on some of the character reboots (Supes, Wonder Woman, etc. and some characters were backburnered (like Hawkman) until they had the iconic foundations set up. Some books (like JLof A) were real messy in that transition period because they had elements both of what was and looking to try to figure out what would be coming as they moved forward and then ended up getting cancelled and relaunched as plans for Legends solidified in the first year after the Crisis mini and Wolfman and Perez started to codify the new history in History of the DCU which was to serve a bit as a "series bible" for the new DCU taking shape. Even books like Power of the Atom in 1988 were part of the post-Crisis makeover as they got around to defing Ray Palmer's place in the new DCU even though they had continued to do Sword of the Atom specials for a few years after the Crisis maxi was published.
It was a process, one with starts and stops, missteps and changes midstream, and it is hard to pin down exactly what was part of the plan moving forward and what was leftovers that were already in motion and needed to keep the publishing slate full as they worked through their plan to reshape things. Things did not goes monthly and plans went awry at times, which lead to things like Zero Hour a few years after the "5 year plan" (and the year after Giordano left leaving someone else trying to put their stamp on things)because so much had been changed, rethought, or just plain had too many loose ends and false starts. So if you go strictly by publication dates for series as to what was pre-and Post-Crisis, you get a fractured picture because the intent was to use Crisis to inform changes and rethinking of characters for a number of years after the series concluded until a new foundation was set up.
So if anyone is right or wrong here, I would look to the people enacting the changes (and not fan perceptions) to determine what was considered a post-Crisis change or a change resulting from Crisis, and Giordano was pretty clear how he saw what was happening in the years after the maxi-series.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 8:49:13 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is not correct. Following Crisis, both the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawks were still in continuity, though Carter and Shiera were quickly shuffled off to Limbo with the JSA. When the Hawkworld reboot occurred, Carter and Shiera had been gone for over two years, there was never any question of their having been in JLI. The continuity implant Hawks from JLI were Fel Andar and Sharon Parker, posing as Carter Hall Junior and Sharon Hall, they were never intended to be the original Carter and Shiera. And yet, for some reason, people are turned off by DC's entirely straightforward continuity
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