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Post by tingramretro on Mar 17, 2016 10:37:04 GMT -5
The point is, it wasn't pretty generic superhero stuff then. If Moore hadn't got there first on stuff like Captain Britain, others woukd not have followed in the same vein. It was groundbreaking stuff, and remains my favourite superhero story ever. So we're in agreement  I was just talking about my current enjoyement of it, as I would be foolish not to recognise its past merits. I guess you've been reading superhero comics and comics in general for far longer then me, so you lived the change that Moore brought and felt it, "live". I personnaly started with this kind of works and it was only later that I discovered this advanced the genre by giant steps, so I don't have to feel as passionate about it as you I guess, that's all. I've been reading comics all my life, pretty much; I basically learned to read with comics in the early seventies, old British humour titles, war comics, and early Marvel UK reprints of Silver Age stuff. I was about ten years old when I first encountered Alan Moore's stuff, at the time that he was just making a name for himself. His Captain Britain stuff was written when I was between eleven and fourteen, and it imprinted itself on my mind as few things have done before or since. It, and various other things published at that time (many of them also by Moore, like Marvelman and Skizz), absolutely stunned me, as a kid who'd grown up with the likes of The Man Called Nova and Battle Picture Weekly. I still firmly believe that the period from about 1980-1985 was the last real golden age of creativity and experimentation in comics. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 17, 2016 12:26:45 GMT -5
So we're in agreement I was just talking about my current enjoyement of it, as I would be foolish not to recognise its past merits. I guess you've been reading superhero comics and comics in general for far longer then me, so you lived the change that Moore brought and felt it, "live". I personnaly started with this kind of works and it was only later that I discovered this advanced the genre by giant steps, so I don't have to feel as passionate about it as you I guess, that's all. I've been reading comics all my life, pretty much; I basically learned to read with comics in the early seventies, old British humour titles, war comics, and early Marvel UK reprints of Silver Age stuff. I was about ten years old when I first encountered Alan Moore's stuff, at the time that he was just making a name for himself. His Captain Britain stuff was written when I was between eleven and fourteen, and it imprinted itself on my mind as few things have done before or since. It, and various other things published at that time (many of them also by Moore, like Marvelman and Skizz), absolutely stunned me, as a kid who'd grown up with the likes of The Man Called Nova and Battle Picture Weekly. I still firmly believe that the period from about 1980-1985 was the last real golden age of creativity and experimentation in comics. I too am very glad I was around at the time to experience the absolute quantum leap Alan Moore's writing represented for comics in the 80s, though in my case it was Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Miracle Man, and V for Vendetta - I didn't get to read Captain Britain until it was collected years later. I might extend that last golden age a little further, to take in more of the work of Americans like Clowes or the Hernandezes - though I suppose the latter started within your 1980-85 span. I sympathise with the basic feeling, though. Much as I admire writers like Morrison and Ennis, their work wasn't such an incredible leap forward as Moore's was when he started out. And I haven't found myself as impressed by later American cartoonists such as Chris Ware as I was with those who came on the scene in the 80s like the aforementioned Hernandezes and others. But I'd like to hear the counter-argument: are we dismissing more recent work unfairly - the best of the Vertigo stuff in the 90s, for example? |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 17, 2016 13:15:52 GMT -5
I've been reading comics all my life, pretty much; I basically learned to read with comics in the early seventies, old British humour titles, war comics, and early Marvel UK reprints of Silver Age stuff. I was about ten years old when I first encountered Alan Moore's stuff, at the time that he was just making a name for himself. His Captain Britain stuff was written when I was between eleven and fourteen, and it imprinted itself on my mind as few things have done before or since. It, and various other things published at that time (many of them also by Moore, like Marvelman and Skizz), absolutely stunned me, as a kid who'd grown up with the likes of The Man Called Nova and Battle Picture Weekly. I still firmly believe that the period from about 1980-1985 was the last real golden age of creativity and experimentation in comics. I too am very glad I was around at the time to experience the absolute quantum leap Alan Moore's writing represented for comics in the 80s, though in my case it was Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Miracle Man, and V for Vendetta - I didn't get to read Captain Britain until it was collected years later. I might extend that last golden age a little further, to take in more of the work of Americans like Clowes or the Hernandezes - though I suppose the latter started within your 1980-85 span. I sympathise with the basic feeling, though. Much as I admire writers like Morrison and Ennis, their work wasn't such an incredible leap forward as Moore's was when he started out. And I haven't found myself as impressed by later American cartoonists such as Chris Ware as I was with those who came on the scene in the 80s like the aforementioned Hernandezes and others. But I'd like to hear the counter-argument: are we dismissing more recent work unfairly - the best of the Vertigo stuff in the 90s, for example? began in '82 and was definitely a part of that whole early 80s leap forward in creativity. I agree that a lot of great work came out of DC and Vertigo in particular (and Eclipse, before they imploded) in the late 80s and early 90s, but I do tend to think it was basically a result of what had been done earlier, and very little of it has stayed with me in the same way. Morrison, I've never been hugely impressed by, to be honest. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 17, 2016 19:30:17 GMT -5
But I'd like to hear the counter-argument: are we dismissing more recent work unfairly - the best of the Vertigo stuff in the 90s, for example? I would think so. A lot of Vertigo stuff from the 90ies till now are IMHO timeless classics, many ambitious works that are as critical to me as the best of the 80ies. Here's a list of Vertigo stuff from its first decade (1993-2003) that I think is really good, still holds up, worth seeking out, and is better than 98% of all of the 80ies US comics : 100% (2002) 2020 Visions (1997) Animal Man (1993 from Delano) Bigg Time (2002) The Children's Crusade (1993) Congo Bill (1999) Cruel and Unusual (1999) Deadenders (2000) Death: The High Cost of Living (1993) Enigma (1993) The Extremist (1993) Fables (2002) Face (1995) Faith (1999) The Filth (2002) Finals (1999) Flex Mentallo (1996) Flinch (1999) Four Horsemen (2000) Gangland (1998) Girl (1996) Goddess (1995) Grip: The Strange World of Men (2002) Happydale: Devils in the Desert (1999) The Heart of the Beast (1994) Heartthrobs (1999) Heavy Liquid (1999) Hellblazer (1988) The Horrorist (1995) The House on the Borderland (2000) Human Target (1999) I Die at Midnight (2000) Industrial Gothic (1995) King David (2002) Lucifer (2000) Millennium Fever (1995) The Mystery Play (1994) Nevada (1998) Outlaw Nation (2000) Proposition Player (1999) Sandman Mystery Theatre (1993) Scene of the Crime (1999) Sebastian O (1993) Shade, the Changing Man (1993) Shadows Fall (1994) Strange Adventures (1999) The System (1996) Tainted (1995) Terminal City (1996) Transmetropolitan (1997) Undercover Genie (2003) Vertigo Pop! London (2003) Vertigo Pop! Tokyo (2002) Vertigo Visions: Prez (1995) Vertigo Voices: The Eaters (1995) War Stories (2001) Weird War Tales (1997) Weird Western Tales (2001) Y: The Last Man (2002) You Are Here (1999) I didn't include The Invisibles, 100% or Preacher since I'm not sure how I wtill feel about those, and I would have included Sandman, but it was almost halfway through when Vertigo started out. There's still many great ones post 2003, but we were talking abou the 90ies, right? Image has kind of taken over in the past 4 years. I just checked march 2012 solicitaions and I was in with 10-12 books! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 18, 2016 3:39:13 GMT -5
are we dismissing more recent work unfairly - the best of the Vertigo stuff in the 90s, for example? I don't think we are, here's some (all?) good writing in superhero comics, for the entirety of the 90's: Alan Davis ClanDestine and JLA: The Nail. Alan Moore's 1963, Young Blood, Supreme, WildC.A.T.S…. Barry Smith's Archer & Armstrong Bryan Talbot's Legends Of The Dark Knight Chuck Dixon's NightWing Dan Abnett's Mys-Tech Wars, Conspiracy, Punisher: Year One and Psychoville U.S.A Gerard Jones & Len Strazewski's Prime Grant Morrison's Skrull Kill Krew, Doom Patrol, JLA… Howard Chaykin's Power & Glory James Robinson's Golden Age Jim Shooter's Solar, Man Of The Atom John Arcudi's Gen 13 John Byrne's Namor, The Sub-Mariner Keith Giffen's Eclipso, Justice League and Legion Of Superheroes Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts, Avengers, Marvels and Avengers Forever Marc McLaurin's Cage Mark Waid's Captain America and Kingdom Come Matt Wagner's Batman: Grendel(s) and Sandman Mystery Theatre Mike Baron's Nexus Neil Gaiman's Miracleman Paul Jenkins Inhumans Peter David's Spiderman 2099, Hulk and X-Factor Peter Milligan's Human Target Steven Seagle's Alpha Flight Warren Ellis StormWatch/Authority, Planetary, Hellstorm… William Messner-Loebs Impulse and Wonder Woman Added to the Vertigo stuff already listed, and other things like: Give Me Liberty Cerebus Cages From Hell Lazarus Churchyard Exit Signal To Noise Aliens: Sacrifice Understanding Comics 300 Sin City Tarzan: Carson Of Venus Optic Nerve: Summer Blonde Stray Bullets BWS Storyteller Torso Not that much, for 10 years worth of publication. The 21st century is faring a little bit better, but still far from what we saw in the 80's. |
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 18, 2016 21:03:20 GMT -5
are we dismissing more recent work unfairly - the best of the Vertigo stuff in the 90s, for example? I don't think we are, here's some (all?) good writing in superhero comics, for the entirety of the 90's: Alan Davis ClanDestine and JLA: The Nail. Alan Moore's 1963, Young Blood, Supreme, WildC.A.T.S…. Barry Smith's Archer & Armstrong Bryan Talbot's Legends Of The Dark Knight Chuck Dixon's NightWing Dan Abnett's Mys-Tech Wars, Conspiracy, Punisher: Year One and Psychoville U.S.A Gerard Jones & Len Strazewski's Prime Grant Morrison's Skrull Kill Krew, Doom Patrol, JLA… Howard Chaykin's Power & Glory James Robinson's Golden Age Jim Shooter's Solar, Man Of The Atom John Arcudi's Gen 13 John Byrne's Namor, The Sub-Mariner Keith Giffen's Eclipso, Justice League and Legion Of Superheroes Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts, Avengers, Marvels and Avengers Forever Marc McLaurin's Cage Mark Waid's Captain America and Kingdom Come Matt Wagner's Batman: Grendel(s) and Sandman Mystery Theatre Mike Baron's Nexus Neil Gaiman's Miracleman Paul Jenkins Inhumans Peter David's Spiderman 2099, Hulk and X-Factor Peter Milligan's Human Target Steven Seagle's Alpha Flight Warren Ellis StormWatch/Authority, Planetary, Hellstorm… William Messner-Loebs Impulse and Wonder Woman Added to the Vertigo stuff already listed, and other things like: Give Me Liberty Cerebus Cages From Hell Lazarus Churchyard Exit Signal To Noise Aliens: Sacrifice Understanding Comics 300 Sin City Tarzan: Carson Of Venus Optic Nerve: Summer Blonde Stray Bullets BWS Storyteller Torso Not that much, for 10 years worth of publication. The 21st century is faring a little bit better, but still far from what we saw in the 80's. Off the top of my head, I'd add triangle era Superman (including specials, PAD Supergirl, Simonson then Priest Steel, Kessel Superboy...), Busiek/Perez Avengers, Morrison Animal Man, Gerard Jones GL books/El Diablo, Superman Adventures/Batman Adventures, PAD Aquaman and Young Justice, Waid Flash, LEGION, Legends of the Dark Knight, the tail end of Ostranders Suicide Squad and Firestorm, Hitman...
Did Zot go into the 90s?...
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 18, 2016 21:56:49 GMT -5
So basicaly, yeah, the 90ies were awesome, Jim Lee/Liefeld/Silvestri/Portacio/McFarlane were just a sidenote.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 18, 2016 22:03:10 GMT -5
There was a ton of great stuff in the 90s. People just want to remember the crap.
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 19, 2016 2:28:01 GMT -5
There was a ton of great stuff in the 90s. People just want to remember the crap. Well, there was an awful lot of it. And I don't think much good stuff made it past the mid point of the decade. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 19, 2016 3:39:33 GMT -5
Off the top of my head, I'd add triangle era Superman (including specials, PAD Supergirl, Simonson then Priest Steel, Kessel Superboy...), Busiek/Perez Avengers, Morrison Animal Man, Gerard Jones GL books/El Diablo, Superman Adventures/Batman Adventures, PAD Aquaman and Young Justice, Waid Flash, LEGION, Legends of the Dark Knight, the tail end of Ostranders Suicide Squad and Firestorm, Hitman...
Did Zot go into the 90s?…
Both Morrison's Animal Man and Zot, barely made into the 90's. The bulk of those series, pertains to the 80's. Kurt Busiek's Avengers, Bryan Talbot's Legends Of The Dark Knight and Keith Giffen's Legion Of Superheroes, are on my list. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 19, 2016 6:27:34 GMT -5
There was a ton of great stuff in the 90s. People just want to remember the crap. Well, there was an awful lot of it. And I don't think much good stuff made it past the mid point of the decade. I don't think so. If you take Waid's Flash for exemple great run, and typical of the 90ies, as was david's Supergirl, most of LOTDK, NML, most of Marvel Knights, so many indie titles of quality such as Berlin, Optic Nerve or Desert Peach, all of those Vertigo I mentioned and more, most of the dark horse Alien line, Hellboy, I could just go on for long post... I don't know, I just believe that the general quality improved a lot in the 90ies, with the crap reaching abyssimal lows and wide success, but as Slam said, there just was truckloads of good standard comics and more then is realized of greatness. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2016 15:27:37 GMT -5
There was a ton of great stuff in the 90s. People just want to remember the crap. Well, there was an awful lot of it. And I don't think much good stuff made it past the mid point of the decade. There's an awful lot of crap in every decade. And there was plenty of good stuff past the mid-point of the decade. Moore himself started LoEG and the ABC line in 99. DC experimented with a number of fun quality books in the late 90s. Chase, Chronos, Vext. They just didn't sell. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 19, 2016 17:25:54 GMT -5
Well, there was an awful lot of it. And I don't think much good stuff made it past the mid point of the decade. There's an awful lot of crap in every decade. And there was plenty of good stuff past the mid-point of the decade. Moore himself started LoEG and the ABC line in 99. DC experimented with a number of fun quality books in the late 90s. Chase, Chronos, Vext. They just didn't sell. To be honest, the only one of those three that I remember was Chronos, which struck me as basically just another generic superhero book. I think I read about three issues... |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2016 17:52:12 GMT -5
There's an awful lot of crap in every decade. And there was plenty of good stuff past the mid-point of the decade. Moore himself started LoEG and the ABC line in 99. DC experimented with a number of fun quality books in the late 90s. Chase, Chronos, Vext. They just didn't sell. To be honest, the only one of those three that I remember was Chronos, which struck me as basically just another generic superhero book. I think I read about three issues... It was a fun book that had a very non-linear storyline and actually made use of the extended DCU and its history in a innovative and cogent way. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 20, 2016 21:22:55 GMT -5
There's an awful lot of crap in every decade. And there was plenty of good stuff past the mid-point of the decade. Moore himself started LoEG and the ABC line in 99. DC experimented with a number of fun quality books in the late 90s. Chase, Chronos, Vext. They just didn't sell. To be honest, the only one of those three that I remember was Chronos, which struck me as basically just another generic superhero book. I think I read about three issues... Chase is one of the Top 5 books DC has published in the past 20 years or so. I tacked down every single short story in the DC specials of the time, Dan Curtis Johnson was an amazing superhero writer. It's a shame he didn't do more... I still fondly remember his JLA issue at the tail end of Morrison's run, the one that reflects on Supes origin with the JLA trying to save a miniature civilisation. |
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I was just talking about my current enjoyement of it, as I would be foolish not to recognise its past merits.
