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Post by dupersuper on May 12, 2016 22:37:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly what Shax was going for, but I wouldn't say that all mutants would have to register, just those that have the potential to cause massive damage, either on purpose or by accident. I assume one would be able to properly identify such. How? How would you know which those are without registering them?
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 12, 2016 23:00:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly what Shax was going for, but I wouldn't say that all mutants would have to register, just those that have the potential to cause massive damage, either on purpose or by accident. I assume one would be able to properly identify such. How? How would you know which those are without registering them? Cerebero? Mutant power scanners? This is what I mean about trying to apply stuff to the real world.. it kinda fall apart evenutally.
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Post by Randle-El on May 12, 2016 23:39:31 GMT -5
How? How would you know which those are without registering them? Cerebero? Mutant power scanners? This is what I mean about trying to apply stuff to the real world.. it kinda fall apart evenutally. Agreed, which is why I tried to frame the discussion in more realistic conditions (e.g., tracking genetic markers for sociopathic behaviors). I thought the intent was NOT to keep it in fictional universe terms. The problem with fictional scenarios is that they really have no limitations apart from what we can imagine. So it's hard to have an intelligent discussion without clear boundaries, since you can always think up increasingly outlandish scenarios that would cut the legs out from underneath the discussion.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 0:12:01 GMT -5
I have been reading and reading this thread and I'm offering my 2 cents worth ... I have a dear friend that once said this.
He is a black man and quite proud of it and a very dear friend of mine ... he said this in italics
"There are good blacks and bad blacks ... pause ...There are good whites and bad whites" ... If you are good mutant you can be acceptable in our society as long you abide by the law and accept responsibility and if you bad like a murderer, a thief, and anything that's not acceptable in our society you can pay the consequences of landing yourself into jail and your mutant powers and abilities can be countered by technology.
If you are a bad mutant and have a history of being one you will have a record and there is no point of having mutant registration and that's why I don't care for the X-Men Cartoons of which they showcase this and that's makes all mutants potentially dangerous and it's bothers me today.
I wished I could word it better but this is the best I could.
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Post by foxley on May 13, 2016 2:21:38 GMT -5
If I'm a mutant and have, say six fingers on one hand, I should have to register because some mutants have the ability to blow up like a nuke?
A member of one subset of humanity (white Americans) blew up a government building in Oklahoma City, killing many people. Following this logic, all white Americans (being members of the same subset of humanity as one who has proved himself dangerous and taken many lives) should register and allow their activities to be tracked and monitored at all times to ensure that they do not blow up any government buildings. Because, to follow Shaxper's logic, it is inevitable that one day, a white American will have a bad day and attempt to kill someone. But registration of all white Americans, should keep the US safe. Shouldn't it?
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,209
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Post by Confessor on May 13, 2016 6:50:51 GMT -5
Great thread! There's been some really interesting, well thought out arguments and counter-arguments here that have been fascinating to read. So allow me to completely lower the tone and simply say...
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Post by The Captain on May 13, 2016 8:01:11 GMT -5
I'm torn on this subject, because I'm a big believer in smaller government and letting people do what they will as long as they are not harming or infringing on the rights of others. Just because someone is born a mutant doesn't automatically make them dangerous, as their mutation could be the ability to read really fast or have delicious honey seep from their pores, or they could have an ability that is a potential WMD but they do not use it in that way.
However, from a "needs of the many vs. needs of the few", the fact that someone with the ability to kill with nothing more than a touch or a look is just walking around is a scary thought, particularly if that individual were mentally unstable or under the control of someone (another mutant with mind control abilities). While it sounds draconian, it would be in the public's best interest to have the government know where these individuals are, what their abilities are, etc. A blood sample is drawn from all babies at birth (at least in the US) and the mutant gene could be checked for at that time, allowing the government to follow up with that individual later in life to see if they have even developed powers, and if so, are their abilities more Magneto or Doug Ramsey.
In response to the point made by foxley about registering white Americans due to the terrorist act in Oklahoma City, the difference is that those individuals were not able to blow up that building on their own. They needed a truck and materials in order to accomplish their goal, which is much different than a mutant being able to blow up the house of their cheating ex-girlfriend by pointing at it or to pull the iron out of their boss's blood when asked to work on a Saturday because they had plans to go out of town.
In closing, I'm glad we don't actually have to deal with this in the real world, because each side has a valid argument.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 13, 2016 9:51:54 GMT -5
I'm torn on this subject, because I'm a big believer in smaller government and letting people do what they will as long as they are not harming or infringing on the rights of others. Just because someone is born a mutant doesn't automatically make them dangerous, as their mutation could be the ability to read really fast or have delicious honey seep from their pores, or they could have an ability that is a potential WMD but they do not use it in that way. However, from a "needs of the many vs. needs of the few", the fact that someone with the ability to kill with nothing more than a touch or a look is just walking around is a scary thought, particularly if that individual were mentally unstable or under the control of someone (another mutant with mind control abilities). While it sounds draconian, it would be in the public's best interest to have the government know where these individuals are, what their abilities are, etc. A blood sample is drawn from all babies at birth (at least in the US) and the mutant gene could be checked for at that time, allowing the government to follow up with that individual later in life to see if they have even developed powers, and if so, are their abilities more Magneto or Doug Ramsey. In response to the point made by foxley about registering white Americans due to the terrorist act in Oklahoma City, the difference is that those individuals were not able to blow up that building on their own. They needed a truck and materials in order to accomplish their goal, which is much different than a mutant being able to blow up the house of their cheating ex-girlfriend by pointing at it or to pull the iron out of their boss's blood when asked to work on a Saturday because they had plans to go out of town. In closing, I'm glad we don't actually have to deal with this in the real world, because each side has a valid argument. You're right. They can't blow up the house of the cheating ex-girlfriend with a finger or pull the iron out of the boss' blood. But they can pummel them with a baseball bat and stick a scissors in their eye. and they do. But we don't register every human because they might kill someone some day...maybe.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 13, 2016 10:59:18 GMT -5
Actually, Slam, we do. Every American has a social security number... that's registration. You have to give it when you do pretty much anything regarding money in this country. Jack Reacher not withstanding, every person leaves a trail that makes them not that difficult to find if they're not actively hiding. Is what we're talking about so different?
Many have their fingerprints on file some voluntarily through things like CORI checks and applications for gun licenses, some not so voluntarily when the end up in the criminal justice system).
People with a high chance to commit a sexual crime are monitored. People with homicidal tendencies that we know about are monitored.
Can a previously normal, well adjusted person kill someone in a fit of rage? Sure. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to prevent bad stuff from happening ever.. that's the argument the gun lobby uses... people break the law all the time, so why have one?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 13, 2016 11:14:56 GMT -5
Actually, Slam, we do. Every American has a social security number... that's registration. You have to give it when you do pretty much anything regarding money in this country. Jack Reacher not withstanding, every person leaves a trail that makes them not that difficult to find if they're not actively hiding. Is what we're talking about so different? First, in my not so humble opinion, your social security number should be used for one purpose and one purpose only and that is Social Security. Any other use of it should be illegal. Second...yes, it's very different. What was proposed in the original post and in the comics is much more akin to Trump's proposal to register Muslims than Social Security. I have major problems with this as well. I'm not aware of any monitoring of people with homicidal tendencies in the U.S. outside of probation/parole, which only takes place after a crime was committed. Not before. Sex offender registration also takes place after a crime was committed. Not before. It's also tremendously abused and is pretty well useless in deterring crime. We don't punish people for not committing crimes. We don't send the thought police out if people think bad things. We don't have blanket curfews to prevent people from being in the position to potentially cause problems. We shouldn't support tyranny.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 13, 2016 13:21:16 GMT -5
Regardless of your not so humble opinions, your social security number is used for alot more than social security. It's used for your credit, any sort of government benefits, taxes, etc. You don't have to like it, but it exists.
I'm pretty sure people under psychiatric care are monitored... that's my impression from talking to the psychiatrists I sell books to, anyway.
And we're not talking about punishing people, we're talking about allowing the government to know they exist and what their capabilities are. Can just knowledge be abused? Of course... but so can anything... of you go that route,and don't take any precaution that could potential be abused, then what you really want is complete anarchy.
Getting back to our original question, so you're ok monitoring mutants AFTER that lose control and kill people, just not before?
This is one of those eternal questions of safety vs. freedom... I'm generally pretty far on the freedom scale in real life, but this particular hypothetical definitely sends me the other direction... the Marvel Universe as it's shown these days is a far too dangerous place otherwise, IMO.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 13, 2016 13:58:17 GMT -5
(...) Getting back to our original question, so you're ok monitoring mutants AFTER that lose control and kill people, just not before? (...) I think the whole discussion is about how that statement sounds if we replace "mutants" by the name of any other group that counts people who might commit a crime. To flag all of the group because of the misdeeds of a few (and even worse, because of the potential misdeeds of a few) strikes me as unfair and probably unconstitutional.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 13, 2016 14:22:06 GMT -5
I agree with any real-life group. MUTANTS, on the other and, have the potential to, on purpose or by accident, literally destroy an entire country.. there's a big difference there.... that's why the analogy breaks down a bit.
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Post by The Captain on May 13, 2016 14:40:07 GMT -5
(...) Getting back to our original question, so you're ok monitoring mutants AFTER that lose control and kill people, just not before? (...) I think the whole discussion is about how that statement sounds if we replace "mutants" by the name of any other group that counts people who might commit a crime. To flag all of the group because of the misdeeds of a few (and even worse, because of the potential misdeeds of a few) strikes me as unfair and probably unconstitutional. But it's not, as wildfire2099 already addressed. In the real world that we currently live in, no individual has the innate ability to destroy a building, city block, or city itself by having a bad thought or clenching their fists tightly or waving their hand in a particular way. Replacing "mutants" with "Jews", "blacks", "Muslims', "evangelicals", or any other group is not an apples-to-apples comparison, because no member of any of those groups has the destructive capability of a Magneto, Storm, or Legion hardwired into their DNA. It may not even be a willful act, as witnessed by the times that Cyclops had his visor knocked off and he opened his eyes in the aftermath, only to cause destruction inadvertently. What if Avalanche had epilepsy (on top of his mutation) and lost control of his powers every time he seized? What is the government's duty to his neighbors, co-workers, or random strangers at the market or movie theater if they were injured or killed because this individual with the ability to cause earthquakes lost control?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 13, 2016 15:54:05 GMT -5
And we're not talking about punishing people, we're talking about allowing the government to know they exist and what their capabilities are. Can just knowledge be abused? Of course... but so can anything... of you go that route,and don't take any precaution that could potential be abused, then what you really want is complete anarchy. Getting back to our original question, so you're ok monitoring mutants AFTER that lose control and kill people, just not before? This is one of those eternal questions of safety vs. freedom... I'm generally pretty far on the freedom scale in real life, but this particular hypothetical definitely sends me the other direction... the Marvel Universe as it's shown these days is a far too dangerous place otherwise, IMO. And exactly what good does registering and monitoring do? We know that Mutant X exists and is powerful and we are monitoring him....Oops...he had a really bad day and he blew up Forest Hills. But at least he was registered. The closest analogy we have in the real world is sex registration. And again that is something that is required after a crime is committed. Not before. And it does Jack-All to actually prevent crime. It just allows the police to round up the usual suspects when something happens. So "registration and monitoring" isn't just registration and monitoring. It is necessarily a prelude to some sort of internment. Because "those" people aren't safe to have around. "I'm sorry Sir and Madame, Little Alex has tested positive for the mutant gene. So we're going to tag him now so we can keep track of him. And you'll be needing to bring him in once a month so we can check and see if his powers are manifesting. Please don't take him outside of our jurisdiction, just in case they do. Oh...and if they turn out to be as powerful as big brother Scotty's, we'll have to euthanize him. It's just too dangerous. I know he never let them get out of control. But he might have. Here's the literature on the vasectomy program. Two mutant children is two too many. Have a nice day."
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