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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 13, 2016 17:00:13 GMT -5
I think the whole discussion is about how that statement sounds if we replace "mutants" by the name of any other group that counts people who might commit a crime. To flag all of the group because of the misdeeds of a few (and even worse, because of the potential misdeeds of a few) strikes me as unfair and probably unconstitutional. But it's not, as wildfire2099 already addressed. In the real world that we currently live in, no individual has the innate ability to destroy a building, city block, or city itself by having a bad thought or clenching their fists tightly or waving their hand in a particular way. Replacing "mutants" with "Jews", "blacks", "Muslims', "evangelicals", or any other group is not an apples-to-apples comparison, because no member of any of those groups has the destructive capability of a Magneto, Storm, or Legion hardwired into their DNA. True, but many ordinary humans have that kind of destructive power thanks to their knowledge or resources. For every Magneto who can twist the GW bridge into pretzels, how many ordinary humans have the capacity to assemble the smallpox virus from scratch? Should we keep tabs on every university student in America? Or what about airplane pilots who can crash a jumbo jet into a heavily populated sector? The only difference I see between these ordinary humans and a lethal mutant is that they had to work at it to become potentially dangerous, while the mutants got that way effortlessly. What's more, once again, we're talking about targeting an entire group the vast majority of which consists of harmless and law-abiding citizens. That the bad apples among them are potentially more dangerous than your typical human terrorist should make no difference. |
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Post by batlaw on May 13, 2016 17:26:38 GMT -5
Trying not to get too involved in this discussion, but I'll say at a certain point such an issue simply must become less about what is (or more accurately, feels) "right" or "good" and what's simply necessary. Even if it's sad, or unfortunate, or unpleasant or "unfair". To think otherwise is ignorant wishful thinking and posturing. We have to accept and deal with reality on its own terms, not ours.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 13, 2016 18:13:40 GMT -5
It's the Marvel Universe, so maybe 'registration and monitoring' comes with Sentinels in the area, that can stun the person if their energy signature goes past a certain level, or as I said early on, Power dampeners (if said mutant can't control themselves).
I feel like you're trying really hard to make this apply to real life in a way it just doesn't
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 13, 2016 18:17:50 GMT -5
But it's not, as wildfire2099 already addressed. In the real world that we currently live in, no individual has the innate ability to destroy a building, city block, or city itself by having a bad thought or clenching their fists tightly or waving their hand in a particular way. Replacing "mutants" with "Jews", "blacks", "Muslims', "evangelicals", or any other group is not an apples-to-apples comparison, because no member of any of those groups has the destructive capability of a Magneto, Storm, or Legion hardwired into their DNA. True, but many ordinary humans have that kind of destructive power thanks to their knowledge or resources. For every Magneto who can twist the GW bridge into pretzels, how many ordinary humans have the capacity to assemble the smallpox virus from scratch? Should we keep tabs on every university student in America? Or what about airplane pilots who can crash a jumbo jet into a heavily populated sector? The only difference I see between these ordinary humans and a lethal mutant is that they had to work at it to become potentially dangerous, while the mutants got that way effortlessly. What's more, once again, we're talking about targeting an entire group the vast majority of which consists of harmless and law-abiding citizens. That the bad apples among them are potentially more dangerous than your typical human terrorist should make no difference. The only humans that are even remotely comparable are the guys that invented the nuclear bomb, and they certainly were kept tabs on very, very closely. All that other stuff requires time and outside equipment which is already monitored pretty carefully. Pilots have really specific rules about when and how long they can fly a plane, and get regular psych evaluations, for instance. The security around people that work with stuff like small pox would probably offend you (My best friend is a Biochemist... I've talked to government security types about him).. this is all stuff that happens right now. YOu can not like it, but it does a decent job of keeping the average Joe safe... we're just applying that stuff to Mutants. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 13, 2016 18:48:32 GMT -5
True, but many ordinary humans have that kind of destructive power thanks to their knowledge or resources. For every Magneto who can twist the GW bridge into pretzels, how many ordinary humans have the capacity to assemble the smallpox virus from scratch? Should we keep tabs on every university student in America? Or what about airplane pilots who can crash a jumbo jet into a heavily populated sector? The only difference I see between these ordinary humans and a lethal mutant is that they had to work at it to become potentially dangerous, while the mutants got that way effortlessly. What's more, once again, we're talking about targeting an entire group the vast majority of which consists of harmless and law-abiding citizens. That the bad apples among them are potentially more dangerous than your typical human terrorist should make no difference. The only humans that are even remotely comparable are the guys that invented the nuclear bomb, and they certainly were kept tabs on very, very closely. The atom bomb is certainly sexier and more spectacular, but the smallpox virus is orders of magnitude more deadly! Add to that new arrivals like Ebola or SARS, and I think molecular biologists could show a thing or two to Oppenheimer when it comes to mass destruction! Not only that, but unlike a nuke, a virus is dead easy to assemble in any biology lab. All you require is some tissue culture facility, a few hundred dollars worth of oligonucleotides and a few enzymes, all available commercially. Well, I'm a molecular biologist myself so I do know about this stuff. It's true that certain organisms are heavily regulated, and with good reason; not every Dick, Tom or Harry can walk into a NC4 laboratory and play with live Ebola virus. But who can stop a professor in a small university from getting the sequence of smallpox or Ebola online, assembling it with commercially available oligonucleotides and introducing that into tissue culture cells and making new virus? It's so easy that many scientists (and government officials) were against the publication of such data. I still fail to see how keeping tabs on a six-fingered mutant is going to keep anyone safe. It's the dangerous ones we want to keep an eye on, and their being dangerous comes from individual characteristics or attitude, not from being mutants per se. That's why I think the Marvel Universe mutant registration act is a bad idea : it turns a large group of people into suspects, even if they have done nothing wrong and wouldn't be that dangerous even if they decided to go bad. Same as for every group. [/quote] |
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Post by foxley on May 13, 2016 23:46:29 GMT -5
I fail to see how registering is going to stop any of these horrible events the pro-reg side keeps insisting will happen. Surely that could only be prevented by taking up a step further: once they have registered, round them all up and put them in some kind of special facility where they can't harm anyone. It's for their own good, right? And keeps them away from honest, decent, normal folk.
Or if you don't want to go to that extreme, perhaps make them wear some kind of symbol, so normal folk will be able to tell who they are at a glance, and flee from them, lest the 'evil' mutant suddenly blow up or rip the iron out of their blood or whatever.
But it is for the public good to encourage fear and hatred of a particular group, right? I mean, it's not like that could lead to isolation and hostility could in any way become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 14, 2016 8:07:00 GMT -5
I fail to see how registering is going to stop any of these horrible events the pro-reg side keeps insisting will happen. Surely that could only be prevented by taking up a step further: once they have registered, round them all up and put them in some kind of special facility where they can't harm anyone. It's for their own good, right? And keeps them away from honest, decent, normal folk. Or if you don't want to go to that extreme, perhaps make them wear some kind of symbol, so normal folk will be able to tell who they are at a glance, and flee from them, lest the 'evil' mutant suddenly blow up or rip the iron out of their blood or whatever. But it is for the public good to encourage fear and hatred of a particular group, right? I mean, it's not like that could lead to isolation and hostility could in any way become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Sure, all that's true if you take what hate groups have done in real life and apply it to mutants. What I'm saying (and The Captain, too, I think) is that doesn't make any sense. Having registration itself certainly doesn't do much.. until after the 1st time something bad happens. THen, it would in theory make it easier to catch the bad guy. Small comfort for the victims, for sure. If you want to take the next step, and can be done in a better way. Maybe something like a metal detector that cancels out powers while you're inside a government building/school/etc. Maybe power dampeners (not visible ones, preferably) that can be monitored if they're shut off.. or Sentinels hanging around.. I never thought the government having them was a bad idea, it's just that in the comics evil psychos always get a hold of them. |
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Post by foxley on May 14, 2016 8:22:30 GMT -5
Because there are no lessons to be learned from history?
So a government having an army of mechanized killing machines for the sole purpose of hunting down one particular subset of humanity is a good thing?
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on May 14, 2016 8:34:14 GMT -5
Having just read this thread Im quite surprised with just how annoyed it has made me, no reflection on youse folk, just the subject matter I guess. I cant help but automatically think that some bright spark somewhere would suggest they wear yellow stars(those being registered) and we all know how that went 75 years ago.
I get the arguments for, but cant understand how history has taught us nothing.
This type of singling out of a minority/group/race/creed/religion/colour never ends well. Never has, never will.
So glad to live way down here where no-one can see us.
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Post by hondobrode on May 14, 2016 17:05:10 GMT -5
As humans IRL I think all of us would be against this under any circumstance.
As for this mutant MU talk, I say register them and require them to be trained and schooled on their powers and how best to control them in a world of 99.9999% homo sapiens.
They don't live separately, wear anything differnetly, and still have all their civil rights. The government knows who they are and what their powers are and, again, schools and trains them to be the best they can be.
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Post by foxley on May 15, 2016 1:14:00 GMT -5
As humans IRL I think all of us would be against this under any circumstance. As for this mutant MU talk, I say register them and require them to be trained and schooled on their powers and how best to control them in a world of 99.9999% homo sapiens. They don't live separately, wear anything differnetly, and still have all their civil rights. The government knows who they are and what their powers are and, again, schools and trains them to be the best they can be. Yes but this isn't about the Marvel Universe. shax's original post said: I took the 'among us', to mean here in the real world. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 15, 2016 9:25:49 GMT -5
I was making the extrapolation that if mutants were here, technology that goes with them was too.
I agree that more governments aren't good at not abuse this sort of thing. but I think if mutants were real, they'd have to be.
TBH, if we're really talking about Marvel Universe Mutants in the real world, they'd surely be in charge and we'd surely be slaves... and probably quite happy ones.. it'd just take one strong evil psi for that.
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Post by hondobrode on May 15, 2016 9:54:48 GMT -5
As humans IRL I think all of us would be against this under any circumstance. As for this mutant MU talk, I say register them and require them to be trained and schooled on their powers and how best to control them in a world of 99.9999% homo sapiens. They don't live separately, wear anything differnetly, and still have all their civil rights. The government knows who they are and what their powers are and, again, schools and trains them to be the best they can be. Yes but this isn't about the Marvel Universe. shax's original post said: I took the 'among us', to mean here in the real world. I guess I hadn't thought about it IRL. In that case, there's no way our government would not get involved, from doctors' offices, to insurance, to hospitals, schools, etc, and, I think they would have special schools not unlike Xavier's to help train them the best and safest way possible, for their own safety, their friends and family, and the public at large. They wouldn't be required to be isolated, but probably for their safety and their families, the government would offer refuge under government protection and supervision for them. |
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Post by foxley on May 15, 2016 18:34:40 GMT -5
I was making the extrapolation that if mutants were here, technology that goes with them was too. I agree that more governments aren't good at not abuse this sort of thing. but I think if mutants were real, they'd have to be. TBH, if we're really talking about Marvel Universe Mutants in the real world, they'd surely be in charge and we'd surely be slaves... and probably quite happy ones.. it'd just take one strong evil psi for that. If that's the case, why not just get Doctor Strange to cast a spell to give all mutants perfect control of their powers, that way you don't have worry about them accidentally blowing up? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 15, 2016 18:56:51 GMT -5
I was making the extrapolation that if mutants were here, technology that goes with them was too. I agree that more governments aren't good at not abuse this sort of thing. but I think if mutants were real, they'd have to be. TBH, if we're really talking about Marvel Universe Mutants in the real world, they'd surely be in charge and we'd surely be slaves... and probably quite happy ones.. it'd just take one strong evil psi for that. If that's the case, why not just get Doctor Strange to cast a spell to give all mutants perfect control of their powers, that way you don't have worry about them accidentally blowing up? But they might still intentionally blow something up. So we need to lock them up anyway. Of course normal people also may intentionally blow things up. So we probably need to lock everyone up. Just in case. |
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