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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 30, 2016 6:08:30 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the editors for Marvel claimed it wasn't imaginary, mind control ,clone, imposter etc. He says that if readers go back and look at older comics, this twist will actually hold up and people can "connect the dots and follow the trail of breadcrumbs." See, this is the kind of editorial attitude that grates my nerves when this kind of stunt is pulled. Stan and Jack would regularly suggest (briefly) that a hero had suddenly turned bad, but never went to this level of disingenuousness which borders on dishonesty. This is going beyond the "suuuuure, this is for real! wink-wink-nudge-nudge" attitude we sort of expect. What the bread crumbs tell me, to use Mr. Breevort's image, is that (a) Hydra didn't even exist back in WWII, unless the movies once again caused the Marvel timeline to change (but we know that never happens, because Marvel Editorial told us so repeatedly, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding); (b) Captain America caused Hydra's plans to collapse again and again and again for the last several decades, which makes no sense at all if he's a Hydra agent; (c) one of the most celebrated stories in Cap's history is the one in which Hydra thinks it successfully assassinated him, very clearly naming him as one of their greatest enemies. And so on and so forth, with pigeons eating all the bread crumbs on the trail. And yes, I realize that this kind of response is exactly what Marvel is looking for, because any buzz surrounding a comic is bound to translate into a few sales. The long-term plans of the company should however include this variable: some readers, this one included, lose interest in series that turn their back on their own history. |
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Post by Batflunkie on May 30, 2016 8:52:15 GMT -5
I read the issue and surprisingly loved the story, usually not a big Marvel or Cap fan. The gimmick is no different than what's been done before, surprised by the backlash. Wait, I mean I'm not suprised. In this day and age the Internet rages at everything. I hated the art though. Apparently I'm alone there, but I just don't like his style at all. And I very rarely criticize art, as it rarely matters to me, I'm all about the writing. I felt the opposite. The art was "decent", and the story was "good" except for things that have already been discussed ad nauseam in this thread, namely Skull being an literal stand in for Trump |
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Post by The Captain on May 30, 2016 10:11:29 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the editors for Marvel claimed it wasn't imaginary, mind control ,clone, imposter etc. They also said all those sorts of things about Ben Reilly being the real Spider-Man and not Peter Parker, who was the clone, until they changed their mind and guess what, it all went back to the way it was...which is pretty much what they say every time there is some kind of controversial move getting a buzz-it's not what you think it is (and it isn't until it is) and it all makes sense if you go back and read all the back issues (and it does, until it doesn't). Pretty much you have editorial spin and mob mentality bandwagon from fanboys butting heads on every little thing in comics and in the end, nothing ever really changes but the only constant is a steady attrition of sales despite the bumps caused by the "controversial earth shattering changes" that get everybody up in arms every few months. It's all tempests in teapots, and it's a cycle of wash, rinse, repeat that the industry has slipped into and fans support with their continued purchases out of habit. The only way they will go away is if people stop buying them and stop talking about them keeping the publishers in the newscycle. If these things didn't sell and didn't get people talking, there'd be no reason to do them, but fans give publishers every reason to keep doing things like this. -M I agree with you in part, particularly the second paragraph. For every 10 people walking down the street wearing a Captain America t-shirt, probably only one or two actually read the comic books, while the others are fans of the movies. The publishing end of the MU has to drum up interest in its product, so doing something like this that will get comic book fans up in arms will put them into the newscycle, which may catch the eye of someone who does not normally read the comics and inspire them to check it out. In regard to your example of Ben Reilly/Peter Parker, however, I disagree that it's even remotely the same thing. The groundwork for that was laid out in the mid-70's with the Miles Warren/Jackal storyline. They showed that he'd actually created a clone of Peter Parker, and while it was the one that seemingly blew up with the Jackal in ASM #149, there was always the chance it wasn't. When they dusted the idea off years later and said that everything you knew about Peter Parker for the past 20 years was wrong and pointed back to a specific story where they had a clone of him, it required a certain suspension of belief, but at least it had some basis in history. The storyline is reviled because it was poorly executed, not because they created a backstory that never existed in order to support a nonsensical swerve. This twist doesn't come from out of left field, but out of the port-a-potty in the parking lot across the highway outside the ballpark behind the stands above the wall in left field. There is absolutely nothing in 75 years of publishing this character that points to this, and as Roquefort Raider so accurately pointed out, Steve Rogers has spent decades fighting against Hydra and foiling their plans, so either he's the world's worst sleeper agent or their endgame is something so convoluted that it makes Rube Goldberg shake his head and say "No. Just No." |
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Post by Gene on Jun 29, 2016 13:53:24 GMT -5
Well... That didn't last long, did it?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 29, 2016 14:04:34 GMT -5
Well... That didn't last long, did it? I think I'll die of "not surprised." |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 14:29:06 GMT -5
Well... That didn't last long, did it? I think I'll die of "not surprised." Tempest in teapot publicity stunt comes to an unsurprising end. -M |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 29, 2016 14:44:52 GMT -5
I think I'll die of "not surprised." Tempest in teapot publicity stunt comes to an unsurprising end. -M So much Sturm und Drang needlessly wasted. |
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Post by Gene on Jun 29, 2016 14:49:08 GMT -5
Tempest in teapot publicity stunt comes to an unsurprising end. -M So much Sturm und Drang needlessly wasted. I'm having a hard time thinking of any gimmick that's ever had this nonexistent of a payoff. |
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Post by Trevor on Jun 29, 2016 14:59:31 GMT -5
[tin foil hat on]It was all a last minute gimmick to steal some thunder from Rebirth.[/tin foil hat off]
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Post by Action Ace on Jun 29, 2016 15:51:28 GMT -5
Well... That didn't last long, did it? I think I'll die of "not surprised." Oh great, now we've got to pay for a cleric to cast a Raise Dead spell AGAIN. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 23:09:54 GMT -5
I think I'll die of "not surprised." Oh great, now we've got to pay for a cleric to cast a Raise Dead spell AGAIN. Nah, get a druid to cast reincarnate instead, it's more fun, I'd pay to see the pixie version of Slam_Bradley... -M |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 30, 2016 7:33:40 GMT -5
[tin foil hat on]It was all a last minute gimmick to steal some thunder from Rebirth.[/tin foil hat off] That was obvious from the start. If Marvel's publishing division is dying out, they'll make damn sure DC at least has one foot in the grave |
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Post by The Captain on Jun 30, 2016 13:16:25 GMT -5
Read issue #2 of this yesterday. It was a raging dumpster fire. The art is not good, and the "twist" was so unsurprising, it was actually painful to read it play out on the pages. Out of all the directions Spencer could have gone, out of all of the outside-the-box explanations he could have used, out of all of the variations of "connect the dots in Steve's past" he could have tried, he went for the easiest and, quite frankly, the most unexciting. Beyond that, {Spoiler}The scenes with the Red Skull acting all doting parent on KOBIK were ripped off directly from the most-recent season of Supernatural, where the King of Hell got his hands on an adolescent version of God's sister (yes, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's a show about two brothers killing monsters and saving the world, so what can you expect?). He treated her like a princess in order to build a relationship for when she ultimately developed into an adult version of herself so that he could have access to her world-destroying powers. Spencer should be sued for plagarism or, at the very least, called out on his lazy and frankly uninspired storytelling. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2016 17:10:55 GMT -5
[tin foil hat on]It was all a last minute gimmick to steal some thunder from Rebirth.[/tin foil hat off] That was obvious from the start. If Marvel's publishing division is dying out, they'll make damn sure DC at least has one foot in the grave Marvel and DC have been engaging in stunts to steal each other's thunder for decades. Neither is blameless, and there is no one is the good guy one is the bad guy in this they are both shamelessly cash-grabbing with just about everything they do as they rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic that is the direct market, worried more about percentage points of market share in sales to retailers than about producing quality material that will grow their readership base long term or grow the business outside the niche market it exists in. If this surprises you, you haven't been paying attention to the Marvel/DC interaction since the Amalgam era of the 90s, the last time things were tolerable between the two companies before deteriorating completely ending any joint cross-over projects and launching a pissing contest that has taken so many forms form exclusivity wars for creative talent to competing events and for who has bragging rights over Diamond market share as the market as a whole shrinks in a steady state of attrition leading to entropy. -M |
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