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Post by Icctrombone on May 28, 2016 6:47:14 GMT -5
I have something that qualifies as real EDITORIAL SABOTAGE, I heard that when Kirby returned to Marvel that some editors were making fun of his pages and were actively printing negative mail on his letter page. Jim Shooter put a stop to it , I believe one of the editors was Ralph Macchio.
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Post by hondobrode on May 28, 2016 10:34:27 GMT -5
Salicrup too.
He's at Papercutz now as E-i-C and I think of his poor treatment of The King everytime I see the Papercutz logo with a Smurf and a cape.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 28, 2016 11:51:13 GMT -5
I hadn't heard of that... I am shocked that anyone could treat Jack Kirby so shabbily.
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Post by spoon on May 28, 2016 14:15:46 GMT -5
Both works, or both interpretations of the character? Like RR, I enjoy DKR, but not as my definitive version of Batman. Both works. My preferred version of Batman would be the one from the 70s through the mid 80s. The Darknight Detective who wasn't completely grimdark. I love DKR as what it was...which was essentially an Elseworld's look at a possible future for Batman. As that it has a ton to say about the characters in it and about the 1980s. The problem is that most people, rather than seeing it as commentary, decided it should be a blueprint for the character. The same thing happened with Watchmen. It's commentary and deconstruction, not a blueprint for the future of superhero funnybooks. Yeah, that's one reason why I'm not motivated enough to see Batman v. Superman in the theater. DKR seems like a really odd choice to adapt as the cornerstone film for a shared film universe that's supposed to be straight-up popcorn super-hero flicks. It's been many years since I read DKR, but I thought it was supposed to be darkly comedic. It's make think Snyder, et al. don't understand it. This discussion makes me want to pick up The Untold Legend of the Batman, which I've never read. |
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Post by hondobrode on May 28, 2016 15:02:26 GMT -5
Classic Bronze Age Batman by Len Wein, Jim Aparo & John Byrne
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 28, 2016 19:44:54 GMT -5
Two things quickly spring to mind when I hear Editorial Sabotage:
The Crossing... evil Tony/ Iron Kid was a huge slap in the face to any Iron Fan, and was very, very quickly forgotten. Worse that Civil War and the recent 'who is Tony Stark's parents' (both of which were also pretty bad)
2nd, is the end of 2099, where Joey Cavileri and most of the writers quit over upper management butting into the plot. I don't recall exactly what the problem was, but I know for sure Green Goblin 2099's id was changed from what PAD intended, and I think having the current FF turn up was too.
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Post by dupersuper on May 28, 2016 23:23:25 GMT -5
The first thing that sprung to my mind upon reading the thread title was McDuffies Justice League run.
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Post by dupersuper on May 28, 2016 23:24:21 GMT -5
I have something that qualifies as real EDITORIAL SABOTAGE, I heard that when Kirby returned to Marvel that some editors were making fun of his pages and were actively printing negative mail on his letter page. Jim Shooter put a stop to it , I believe one of the editors was Ralph Macchio. Then there was the Swanning of Kirbys Superman faces while he was at DC... |
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Post by Cei-U! on May 29, 2016 7:47:04 GMT -5
I have something that qualifies as real EDITORIAL SABOTAGE, I heard that when Kirby returned to Marvel that some editors were making fun of his pages and were actively printing negative mail on his letter page. Jim Shooter put a stop to it , I believe one of the editors was Ralph Macchio. Then there was the Swanning of Kirbys Superman faces while he was at DC... Not Swan. Anderson on covers, Plastino on interiors, so "Plastandersoning Kirby's Superman faces" maybe? Cei-U! Anderplasting? |
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Post by Prince Hal on May 29, 2016 8:20:19 GMT -5
Then there was the Swanning of Kirbys Superman faces while he was at DC... Not Swan. Anderson on covers, Plastino on interiors, so "Plastandersoning Kirby's Superman faces" maybe? Cei-U! Anderplasting? De-Kirbifying. |
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Post by dbutler69 on May 29, 2016 9:33:33 GMT -5
So am I, but it is Untold Legends of the Batman that I view as featuring the "real" Batman. The Dark Knight Returns, much as I love it in its own right, always felt like a What if..? type of story to me. Exactly. Well said. Yup, I can't add much to that. It took the works right out of my mouth, or off of my keyboard. |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 31, 2016 4:12:21 GMT -5
I heard of tales in the 80's where Steve Englehart had his FF stories tampered with so much so, that he took his name off of it and used a fake name. It's too bad because when he took the book over he had a love triangle happening between Johnny, Crystal and Alicia that was kind of groundbreaking.
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Post by coinilius on May 31, 2016 5:19:08 GMT -5
Salicrup too. He's at Papercutz now as E-i-C and I think of his poor treatment of The King everytime I see the Papercutz logo with a Smurf and a cape. Wait, Jim Salicrup was treating Kirby badly when Jack returned to Marvel? He was Editor in Chief at Topps Comics and oversaw the Kirbyverse there... |
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Post by tolworthy on May 31, 2016 5:31:57 GMT -5
I heard of tales in the 80's where Steve Englehart had his FF stories tampered with so much so, that he took his name off of it and used a fake name. It's too bad because when he took the book over he had a love triangle happening between Johnny, Crystal and Alicia that was kind of groundbreaking. Oh boy, that's putting it mildly. The war began with the usual frustrations, like having to interrupt the flow of the story for an event crossover that made no sense (FF312), then escalated to being forced to suddenly and inexplicably reverse his major storyline (FF326), at which time he took his name off the book. The final straw was having an entire story re-dialogued after it was drawn, resulting in a confusing mess (the first part of annual 21 IIRC). This led to him leading Marvel completely. He was not alone. Walt Simonson took over, but soon left Marvel for similar reasons. Keith Pollard, the FF artist at the time, left for related reasons. He did not like the direction comics were taking: they were no longer something he felt proud of. The funny thing is, the exodus of talent is usually blamed on Jim Shooter, but this happened after he left. Englehart is often blamed for bad FF books, but only 12 of his 32 issues can be considered mainly his vision. (Specifically, 304-311, 313, 320-321, and Annual 20.) To me those are classics every one. |
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Post by hondobrode on May 31, 2016 9:16:14 GMT -5
Salicrup too. He's at Papercutz now as E-i-C and I think of his poor treatment of The King everytime I see the Papercutz logo with a Smurf and a cape. Wait, Jim Salicrup was treating Kirby badly when Jack returned to Marvel? He was Editor in Chief at Topps Comics and oversaw the Kirbyverse there... Yes, that's true. I'd forgotten that ! I think he came to appreciate later Kirby, but when he came back to Marvel in the mid 70's, his pencils weren't quite as sharp as his Marvel Age run in the House of Ideas with Stan and the gang. Part of it was age-ism and part of it was that he was perceived as past his prime, thus, "not all that." |
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