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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 23:37:48 GMT -5
Minor thread necromancy. I've never read this storyline, so perhaps someone who has could confirm if it as bad as the summaries that I have read online make it out to be. Did Reginald Hudlin do a storyline in Black Panther where it is revealed that Wakanda has had a cure for cancer for centuries but refuses to share it with the rest of the world because it would be used to save white people from dying? Well the 'west' is dismissed as barbarian (guess they're not fans of Obama either).
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Hod
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Post by Hod on Sept 16, 2014 7:04:20 GMT -5
Sorry for the thread resurrection (hey, I just got here) but I'm going to have to lay some defence down for Identity Crisis.
I'm not going to defend the whodunit storyline, which was farcical in its logic, nor it's rape storyline, which is indefensible, but there are some wonderful character moments in the series that shows that Meltzer really gets some of the characters of the DCU, and how they interact.
The funeral of Sue Dibny was harrowing, especially the image of Ralph. Throughout you've got Green Arrow's commentary, and he says that Ralph is barely holding it together, but he's not just talking figuratively, he's talking literally as well, as Ralph is literally melting with the emotion of it all. He uses Ralph's powers really well as his emotional state is linked to his physical state, which is a nice touch.
The clash between Oliver and Carter is well worked too. When the decision is made to wipe Batman's memory, Oliver slugs Carter, and Wally says "is that what it's been about all these years? Not politics?" and Oliver replies "You've not been listening Wally. It's always been about politics." It's a great way of showing the opposing viewpoints of the two characters are not just about opinions but about how those opinions from their actions.
There are loads of little character moments that, for me, really worked. The disbelief that Barry could've voted for the mind wipe of Dr Light, then his horror when he realises it was less than six months since Iris had died, and yes, in that moment, Barry probably would've voted for it. The way that Wally stands up to the rest of the Justice League when he realises they have a plan to go after Dr Light. They may have seniority over him, but he's earned his dues and demands their respect, and they defer to him. The procedural aspects of the investigation into Sue's death adds a depth to the universe that this isn't a bunch of random people with powers, but a community that works and pulls together, not just when there's a bad guy to fight.
As a whole, Identity Crisis is a poor story, with some really lousy decisions, and some contrived set pieces. But there are some very nice character moments that I can take out of it and enjoy, and I think those get, understandably, overlooked because of the poor aspects of the series.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Sept 16, 2014 11:52:40 GMT -5
Sorry for the thread resurrection (hey, I just got here) but I'm going to have to lay some defence down for Identity Crisis. I'm not going to defend the whodunit storyline, which was farcical in its logic, nor it's rape storyline, which is indefensible, but there are some wonderful character moments in the series that shows that Meltzer really gets some of the characters of the DCU, and how they interact. The funeral of Sue Dibny was harrowing, especially the image of Ralph. Throughout you've got Green Arrow's commentary, and he says that Ralph is barely holding it together, but he's not just talking figuratively, he's talking literally as well, as Ralph is literally melting with the emotion of it all. He uses Ralph's powers really well as his emotional state is linked to his physical state, which is a nice touch. The clash between Oliver and Carter is well worked too. When the decision is made to wipe Batman's memory, Oliver slugs Carter, and Wally says "is that what it's been about all these years? Not politics?" and Oliver replies "You've not been listening Wally. It's always been about politics." It's a great way of showing the opposing viewpoints of the two characters are not just about opinions but about how those opinions from their actions. There are loads of little character moments that, for me, really worked. The disbelief that Barry could've voted for the mind wipe of Dr Light, then his horror when he realises it was less than six months since Iris had died, and yes, in that moment, Barry probably would've voted for it. The way that Wally stands up to the rest of the Justice League when he realises they have a plan to go after Dr Light. They may have seniority over him, but he's earned his dues and demands their respect, and they defer to him. The procedural aspects of the investigation into Sue's death adds a depth to the universe that this isn't a bunch of random people with powers, but a community that works and pulls together, not just when there's a bad guy to fight. As a whole, Identity Crisis is a poor story, with some really lousy decisions, and some contrived set pieces. But there are some very nice character moments that I can take out of it and enjoy, and I think those get, understandably, overlooked because of the poor aspects of the series. Reminds me of the old joke about the optimist being the one who digs through the pile of horse droppings because he has to get to the horse underneath. There are bits in the series, but you have to dig through a lot of crap to find them.
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Hod
Junior Member
Posts: 11
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Post by Hod on Sept 16, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5
I see it more as a movie that's a bit dull, but has some good action scenes, so I just watch them and ignore the rest.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 16, 2014 20:27:18 GMT -5
A J Lieberman's Pushback from Batman: Gotham Knights 50-55.
Lieberman rates a special place on my list of writers I will never again buy any comic he has any involvement with for one simple reason: he abandoned his story about six issues in for lack of a middle and an ending. There are worse comics on this list, but I believe this to be the the only one on here for this reason. I don't know why DC would publish a story before the writer had come up with an ending, but well, they did.
The story itself is pretty stupid and involves the Joker going after the man who killed his wife (from The Killing Joke). It actually reads as if Lieberman were buying himself time in hopes that he could figure out where to go with this story - he pads out the story with a guest appearance from Green Arrow who spends most of an issue fighting Prometheus, then brings Hush in, establishes a backstory involving a pre-Riddler Edward Nigma just happening by the explosion in which the Joker's wife was killed simply by way of being out for a stroll - but in six issues, he never progresses the story beyond "The Joker learns that his wife was murdered". Instead the Joker takes to the streets, runs afoul of Hush who beats him senseless, returns to his hideout from The Killing Joke where he can recuperate, and a giant 'The End...?' sign is slapped on the end of this piece of crap. Six issues and nothing happened. I don't mean, the story wasn't all that great - I mean, Lieberman didn't even bother trying to pretend that he had any idea what to do with this premise and certainly never came close to coming up with a middle or ending for it. He could have just had everybody in the story spontaneouly combust one issue in and the effect would be the same.
I know that DC has released a lot of comics they clearly didn't believe in, but this one may be the most blatant. Sadly to add insult to injury, Lieberman's first issue also coincided with DC's decision to abandon the Batman: Black and White backups that had once made this title worthwhile.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 17, 2014 13:52:15 GMT -5
A J Lieberman's Pushback from Batman: Gotham Knights 50-55. Lieberman rates a special place on my list of writers I will never again buy any comic he has any involvement with for one simple reason: he abandoned his story about six issues in for lack of a middle and an ending. There are worse comics on this list, but I believe this to be the the only one on here for this reason. I don't know why DC would publish a story before the writer had come up with an ending, but well, they did. The story itself is pretty stupid and involves the Joker going after the man who killed his wife (from The Killing Joke). It actually reads as if Lieberman were buying himself time in hopes that he could figure out where to go with this story - he pads out the story with a guest appearance from Green Arrow who spends most of an issue fighting Prometheus, then brings Hush in, establishes a backstory involving a pre-Riddler Edward Nigma just happening by the explosion in which the Joker's wife was killed simply by way of being out for a stroll - but in six issues, he never progresses the story beyond "The Joker learns that his wife was murdered". Instead the Joker takes to the streets, runs afoul of Hush who beats him senseless, returns to his hideout from The Killing Joke where he can recuperate, and a giant 'The End...?' sign is slapped on the end of this piece of crap. Six issues and nothing happened. I don't mean, the story wasn't all that great - I mean, Lieberman didn't even bother trying to pretend that he had any idea what to do with this premise and certainly never came close to coming up with a middle or ending for it. He could have just had everybody in the story spontaneouly combust one issue in and the effect would be the same. I know that DC has released a lot of comics they clearly didn't believe in, but this one may be the most blatant. Sadly to add insult to injury, Lieberman's first issue also coincided with DC's decision to abandon the Batman: Black and White backups that had once made this title worthwhile. Eeeew. It sounds almost as bad as Identity Crisis.
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Post by foxley on Sept 17, 2014 16:34:02 GMT -5
That was a weird one. It just petered out without really going anywhere.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 18, 2014 20:08:57 GMT -5
A J Lieberman's Pushback from Batman: Gotham Knights 50-55. Lieberman rates a special place on my list of writers I will never again buy any comic he has any involvement with for one simple reason: he abandoned his story about six issues in for lack of a middle and an ending. There are worse comics on this list, but I believe this to be the the only one on here for this reason. I don't know why DC would publish a story before the writer had come up with an ending, but well, they did. The story itself is pretty stupid and involves the Joker going after the man who killed his wife (from The Killing Joke). It actually reads as if Lieberman were buying himself time in hopes that he could figure out where to go with this story - he pads out the story with a guest appearance from Green Arrow who spends most of an issue fighting Prometheus, then brings Hush in, establishes a backstory involving a pre-Riddler Edward Nigma just happening by the explosion in which the Joker's wife was killed simply by way of being out for a stroll - but in six issues, he never progresses the story beyond "The Joker learns that his wife was murdered". Instead the Joker takes to the streets, runs afoul of Hush who beats him senseless, returns to his hideout from The Killing Joke where he can recuperate, and a giant 'The End...?' sign is slapped on the end of this piece of crap. Six issues and nothing happened. I don't mean, the story wasn't all that great - I mean, Lieberman didn't even bother trying to pretend that he had any idea what to do with this premise and certainly never came close to coming up with a middle or ending for it. He could have just had everybody in the story spontaneouly combust one issue in and the effect would be the same. I know that DC has released a lot of comics they clearly didn't believe in, but this one may be the most blatant. Sadly to add insult to injury, Lieberman's first issue also coincided with DC's decision to abandon the Batman: Black and White backups that had once made this title worthwhile. Eeeew. It sounds almost as bad as Identity Crisis. I don't know if I'd go that far - like Identity Crisis, it certainly isn't something anyone involved with should be proud of, but I can't honestly say that the story or intention behind it is vile or mean spirited. As foxley says, it's just so weird. Lieberman obviously came up with the idea of "What if the Joker learned that his wife were murdered", wrote his opening scene where the Joker contemplates this fact, then hit a wall, and rather than say "hm, I don't really have any ideas beyond this, I think I'll just come up with something else" stayed with that idea and just released issue after issue of nothing in the hopes that by the time part four or whatever rolled around, an idea would pop into his head. This never happened and the result was that "The End" slapped on to some random part of the story. DC may as well have just written in "RIP OFF" instead. It still rankles me that DC must have known that their new writer didn't have a completed script for his inaugural story and decided that since the reader wouldn't realise how they had been screwed until it was too late, there'd be no harm in releasing it as is.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Sept 19, 2014 10:20:54 GMT -5
Eeeew. It sounds almost as bad as Identity Crisis. ...decided that since the reader wouldn't realise how they had been screwed until it was too late, there'd be no harm in releasing it as is. That could apply to a lot of the stories on this list.
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Post by Pharozonk on Sept 19, 2014 10:55:23 GMT -5
This was a pretty bizarre way for Element Lad to come to terms with his sexuality.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 19, 2014 11:18:52 GMT -5
This was a pretty bizarre way for Element Lad to come to terms with is sexuality. I didn't know that Element Lad was gay.
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Post by Pharozonk on Sept 19, 2014 11:28:41 GMT -5
I didn't know that Element Lad was gay. I think that story technically makes him bisexual, though since Shvaughn technically had sex with Jan under false pretenses as a woman, does that mean Jan was raped?
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Post by fanboystranger on Sept 19, 2014 11:52:06 GMT -5
I didn't know that Element Lad was gay. I think that story technically makes him bisexual, though since Shvaughn technically had sex with Jan under false pretenses as a woman, does that mean Jan was raped? They got around it by saying that Jan loved Sean/Shvaughn for his soul, not his body. Jan was very philosophical in that run.
My only problem with that particular story is that it seemed to come out of nowhere. That third year of Giffen's Legion is a master class in how to plot over the long term. (Hell, the whole run is.) This is the only part of it that seems tacked on for no good reason.
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Post by impulse on Sept 19, 2014 12:43:13 GMT -5
Well, I missed the boat on this thread the first time around. Most of mine have been covered, though to add:
Loeb - I have not enjoyed anything he has written after Hush. It's tragic as it seemed to coincide with his son passing on, but something happened then. Everything of his I've read from the past 10 years is just godawful. I get what folks are saying about his ability to court and write to great artists, but at the end of the day, I judge a comic as a completed work, and his plotting and dialog are so atrocious as to ruin the book for me. I've found things to be awful not knowing they were Loeb at the time, and then later found out he was involved. He seems like a nice guy, and its horrible what happened to his son, but I can't stand his writing anymore. His death of Sabretooth arc in Wolverine was some of the worst-written tripe I've ever seen.
Austen - not much else to to say. HIs X-Men was impressively terrible. He is capable of writing good things, though. His Marvel MAX US War Machine was quite good as were his fill-ins on Exiles, but that's because those fit the style he happens to be capable of writing.
Morrison - Really enjoyed his X-Men, but as others have said, around the time he became convinced of his own brilliance and was let off his leash it was just too much. He's like George Lucas in that he has great big ideas but he needs someone to reign him in and say "no, that's stupid." Just a filter.
House of M/much of Bendis - as an X-Fan, I hated what House of M did to the mutants. Bendis essentially murdered the franchise in that storyline. Sure, it would take years for them to bleed out and finally die off creatively, but that was the fatal blow. While Morrison's run was certainly hit or miss, it set up fantastic things for the mutants in the X-books, and Marvel reversed it and killed the franchise ever since. So disappointing.
I don't really have a lot more "worst ever." I have a lot more "really boring/bad enough I dropped it" but not really objectively worst ever. I'm typically not a fan of David Lapham from what little I've read.
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Post by paulie on Sept 19, 2014 13:00:44 GMT -5
I think that story technically makes him bisexual, though since Shvaughn technically had sex with Jan under false pretenses as a woman, does that mean Jan was raped? They got around it by saying that Jan loved Sean/Shvaughn for his soul, not his body. Jan was very philosophical in that run.
My only problem with that particular story is that it seemed to come out of nowhere. That third year of Giffen's Legion is a master class in how to plot over the long term. (Hell, the whole run is.) This is the only part of it that seems tacked on for no good reason.
I always thought this was the most over the top character development regarding the 5YL Legion.
There was some sense of Giffen piling on at this point.
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