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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 13:43:56 GMT -5
I wish they'd collect that Lieberman Gotham Knights run in a trade for like $5. I have no reason to doubt chadwilliam, but that write-up just doesn't seem possible.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 19, 2014 16:41:31 GMT -5
I have to say that, outside of Infinity Gauntlet and Crisis on Infinite Earth's, I haven't liked a single event series. (And even those were flawed. Fun, but flawed.)
I think the "worst" in terms of damage has to go to the Clone Saga. The last time Spider-Man wasn't screwed up royally, for me at least, was around 1991; Eric Larsen's last issue (#350) officially ends my own personal Spider-Man continuity.
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Post by fanboystranger on Sept 19, 2014 21:53:12 GMT -5
They got around it by saying that Jan loved Sean/Shvaughn for his soul, not his body. Jan was very philosophical in that run.
My only problem with that particular story is that it seemed to come out of nowhere. That third year of Giffen's Legion is a master class in how to plot over the long term. (Hell, the whole run is.) This is the only part of it that seems tacked on for no good reason.
I always thought this was the most over the top character development regarding the 5YL Legion.
There was some sense of Giffen piling on at this point.
I've always heard that this particular development was more the Biernbaums. I guess back in the old "Legion Outpost" fan press days, there was speculation that Jan was gay simply based on his pink costume, which seems ridiculous to me, but whatever, those were different times. Anyway, the Biernbaums were part of that fan press, and years later, they had the opportunity to put a big twist on Jan and Schvaughn. It wouldn't have been so bad if there had actually been some kind of build-up to it, but it was just plunked down in the middle of a truly epic storyline to give Jan and Sean some dramatic moments. The one positive, I guess, is that it truly showed how noble Jan Arrah is, and after a series where he was so introspective and a loner almost to a fault, he found that he connected with Sean because he was an outsider, too. |
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Post by paulie on Sept 20, 2014 7:42:18 GMT -5
I always thought this was the most over the top character development regarding the 5YL Legion.
There was some sense of Giffen piling on at this point.
I've always heard that this particular development was more the Biernbaums. I guess back in the old "Legion Outpost" fan press days, there was speculation that Jan was gay simply based on his pink costume, which seems ridiculous to me, but whatever, those were different times. Anyway, the Biernbaums were part of that fan press, and years later, they had the opportunity to put a big twist on Jan and Schvaughn. It wouldn't have been so bad if there had actually been some kind of build-up to it, but it was just plunked down in the middle of a truly epic storyline to give Jan and Sean some dramatic moments. The one positive, I guess, is that it truly showed how noble Jan Arrah is, and after a series where he was so introspective and a loner almost to a fault, he found that he connected with Sean because he was an outsider, too. It was harrowing. Jan trying to find medicine in that holocaust of an environment. I was routing for them. But you hit the nail on the head: It came out of nowhere.
And as one who has to wear a suit and tie to work... I'm quite fond of the pink business shirt!
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Post by foxley on Sept 20, 2014 18:31:12 GMT -5
Eeeew. It sounds almost as bad as Identity Crisis. I don't know if I'd go that far - like Identity Crisis, it certainly isn't something anyone involved with should be proud of, but I can't honestly say that the story or intention behind it is vile or mean spirited. As foxley says, it's just so weird. Lieberman obviously came up with the idea of "What if the Joker learned that his wife were murdered", wrote his opening scene where the Joker contemplates this fact, then hit a wall, and rather than say "hm, I don't really have any ideas beyond this, I think I'll just come up with something else" stayed with that idea and just released issue after issue of nothing in the hopes that by the time part four or whatever rolled around, an idea would pop into his head. This never happened and the result was that "The End" slapped on to some random part of the story. DC may as well have just written in "RIP OFF" instead. It still rankles me that DC must have known that their new writer didn't have a completed script for his inaugural story and decided that since the reader wouldn't realise how they had been screwed until it was too late, there'd be no harm in releasing it as is. Giving this story was immediately followed by the "War Games" arc - which had to go there as it was an arc that crossed over all the Bat-titles - I wondered at the time if DC just decided to cut their losses and end the story where it was as it obviously wasn't going anywhere. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 20, 2014 19:46:19 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd go that far - like Identity Crisis, it certainly isn't something anyone involved with should be proud of, but I can't honestly say that the story or intention behind it is vile or mean spirited. As foxley says, it's just so weird. Lieberman obviously came up with the idea of "What if the Joker learned that his wife were murdered", wrote his opening scene where the Joker contemplates this fact, then hit a wall, and rather than say "hm, I don't really have any ideas beyond this, I think I'll just come up with something else" stayed with that idea and just released issue after issue of nothing in the hopes that by the time part four or whatever rolled around, an idea would pop into his head. This never happened and the result was that "The End" slapped on to some random part of the story. DC may as well have just written in "RIP OFF" instead. It still rankles me that DC must have known that their new writer didn't have a completed script for his inaugural story and decided that since the reader wouldn't realise how they had been screwed until it was too late, there'd be no harm in releasing it as is. Giving this story was immediately followed by the "War Games" arc - which had to go there as it was an arc that crossed over all the Bat-titles - I wondered at the time if DC just decided to cut their losses and end the story where it was as it obviously wasn't going anywhere. I always hated having a crossover thrown In the middle of a comic i liked. They did it when i was collecting Catwoman. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 20, 2014 22:44:20 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd go that far - like Identity Crisis, it certainly isn't something anyone involved with should be proud of, but I can't honestly say that the story or intention behind it is vile or mean spirited. As foxley says, it's just so weird. Lieberman obviously came up with the idea of "What if the Joker learned that his wife were murdered", wrote his opening scene where the Joker contemplates this fact, then hit a wall, and rather than say "hm, I don't really have any ideas beyond this, I think I'll just come up with something else" stayed with that idea and just released issue after issue of nothing in the hopes that by the time part four or whatever rolled around, an idea would pop into his head. This never happened and the result was that "The End" slapped on to some random part of the story. DC may as well have just written in "RIP OFF" instead. It still rankles me that DC must have known that their new writer didn't have a completed script for his inaugural story and decided that since the reader wouldn't realise how they had been screwed until it was too late, there'd be no harm in releasing it as is. Giving this story was immediately followed by the "War Games" arc - which had to go there as it was an arc that crossed over all the Bat-titles - I wondered at the time if DC just decided to cut their losses and end the story where it was as it obviously wasn't going anywhere. I considered this - but Lieberman remained on the title once War Games was over and never returned to the story he was telling even though he did bring the Joker back. I think the title lasted another 20 issues or so, so it wasn't as if Lieberman had the rug pulled out from under him or lost momentum he couldn't get back. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 21, 2014 1:26:12 GMT -5
The whole crossover phase was a nightmare, particularly at DC. Death of Superman wasn't too bad, since it was mainly confined to the core Superman titles, but DC went a bit nuts with Batman's Knightfall/quest/end saga spreading out the story (Justice League Task Force?).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 1:39:03 GMT -5
The whole crossover phase was a nightmare, particularly at DC. Death of Superman wasn't too bad, since it was mainly confined to the core Superman titles, but DC went a bit nuts with Batman's Knightfall/quest/end saga spreading out the story (Justice League Task Force?). If it was a phase, it hasn't ended yet....it might be the new norm for mainstream comics.... -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 21, 2014 6:23:05 GMT -5
I'm guessing that that type of crossover was started in Secret Wars 2. That was the first time I remember seeing stories being directly affected by a mini series.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 22, 2014 2:07:54 GMT -5
The whole crossover phase was a nightmare, particularly at DC. Death of Superman wasn't too bad, since it was mainly confined to the core Superman titles, but DC went a bit nuts with Batman's Knightfall/quest/end saga spreading out the story (Justice League Task Force?). If it was a phase, it hasn't ended yet....it might be the new norm for mainstream comics.... -M You're correct about that. I decided to end my collection with the Grant/Breyfogle run because of the crossover stuff. I absolutely refuse to buy any Marvel or DC event books on principle. Post 1992, all my Batman is in collected editions. I still haven't read Knightfall beyond the back-break issue and still don't know if I really want to or need to. I find the Bat Armor era to be visually repulsive. |
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Post by impulse on Sept 22, 2014 10:46:20 GMT -5
You're correct about that. I decided to end my collection with the Grant/Breyfogle run because of the crossover stuff. I absolutely refuse to buy any Marvel or DC event books on principle. You'd be well within bounds to refuse Marvel crossovers on quality grounds, too, unless you like gross mischaracterizations and inept plotting, particularly if you are/were an X Fan. |
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Post by the4thpip on Sept 25, 2014 3:01:18 GMT -5
I'm guessing that that type of crossover was started in Secret Wars 2. That was the first time I remember seeing stories being directly affected by a mini series. Why not Secret Wars 1? The stories did not "officially" cross over into other books, but you had the heroes missing for a couple of issues (like in F4) and then the fallout like the black costume in Spider-Man or She-Hulk replacing Ben in the F4. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2014 4:29:53 GMT -5
I'm guessing that that type of crossover was started in Secret Wars 2. That was the first time I remember seeing stories being directly affected by a mini series. Why not Secret Wars 1? The stories did not "officially" cross over into other books, but you had the heroes missing for a couple of issues (like in F4) and then the fallout like the black costume in Spider-Man or She-Hulk replacing Ben in the F4. You're not wrong. I especially disliked Having a Fantastic Four storyline being resolved in Sectret Wars 2. There was a Malice arc that you have to buy that concludes in that Mini. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Sept 25, 2014 9:20:27 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned that utter piece of garbage that was the Bill Jemas penned Marville miniseries? I hope i get this correct. Peter David's Captain Marvel series was on the brink of cancellation.So he and publisher Jemas had a bet if jemas could write a comic that would outsell Captain Marvel. It was called You Decide in the fan press and the losing title would be cancelled So Jemas wrote this god awful story about A Ted Turner-Jane Fonda lookalike parents who send their child to earth before the planet Kal-AOL explodes. He lands on earth and has super powers and pretty much copies the Smallville TV show. Then it just goes off on a tangent showing scenes from past history with Wolverine as a neanderthal. #7 was the final issue and wasn't even a story.It was only guidelines to how to submit material to the revitalized Epic imprint. Peter David's Captain Marvel survived for another 2 years    |
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