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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2016 8:05:42 GMT -5
Thing is, it really didn't. The storyline that began with Pym striking Jan (once, in a moment of madness) and that causing his marriage to collapse and his Avengers membership to be terminated led to a lengthy 'road to redemption' saga which was probably the most interesting thing anyone's ever done with the character. I agree that it was interesting but you just proved my point. He has been one of my favorites from Avengers #1 as Ant-man/Giant-man. I followed him through his Goliath and Yellowjackets days and really thought he was a key member. Along comes his event and Shooter Paints him as a hero that never quite measured up to everyone else. Huh ? At the conclusion he's cleared but no longer a hero and he never quite reaches the heights that he enjoyed during the Silver/Bronze age. I don't know about that.. he was pretty important during the Initiative era... he basically became the trainer for the next generation of the Avengers (even if Marvel has forgotten they exist)... he was the mentor/star of two books (arguably Avengers: The Initiative, then Avengers: Academy), and he was banging Tigra, which counts for something  . |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Jul 17, 2016 9:41:23 GMT -5
Let me echo that I too am surprised to see "Captain Marvel is killed off with Cancer" on here. I've never read it, but I thought that this was a universally loved story line, no? I voted OTHER because... ...the "One More Day" clusterf**k of Peter Parker and MJ having their marriage erased by Mephisto in order to save Aunt May's life, the attendant continuity reboot and retconing of basically every Spider-Man comic since 1987 and the utter mess that was the ensuing "Brand New Day" era leaves a taste in my mouth so bad that even typing about it is making me reach for the Listerine. It's funny but I never cared for Spider-mans marriage to MJ. I get that deal with the devil was a clumsy way to abolish it, but I always felt that marriage ( in most cases) kills drama in comic relationships. I can see why some people would feel that way, but personally I always liked the marriage. I liked that it changed the dynamic of the character and seemed like a natural progression for Peter Parker. I liked that you could read about Petey's life from Amazing Fantasy #15 onwards and see some real character progression: starting out as a shy, awkward teenager, growing in confidence and into himself (even landing a hot gf in Gwen Stacy) during the Romita years, then losing that gf in a tragic way, then a blossoming romance with Mary Jane, marriage, MJ's pregnancy, loosing their baby (or did they?), Peter becoming a teacher etc, etc...that all felt like a proper life story to me, albeit one that was told over the course of 45 odd years in our time. The single worst thing that OMD did (and let me just say that there are many, many bad things it did) was to kill that sense of onward character momentum dead. It rendered Spider-Man as nothing more than formula fiction and killed any real interest in the ongoing life of Peter Parker for me. Although I hung on a fair few years afterwards, hoping things would improve -- and there were some decent stories during that time, to be fair -- the Peter Parker that I loved...the character that I gave a crap about...died with that story.  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 17, 2016 10:24:07 GMT -5
It's funny but I never cared for Spider-mans marriage to MJ. I get that deal with the devil was a clumsy way to abolish it, but I always felt that marriage ( in most cases) kills drama in comic relationships. I can see why some people would feel that way, but personally I always liked the marriage. I liked that it changed the dynamic of the character and seemed like a natural progression for Peter Parker. I liked that you could read about Petey's life from Amazing Fantasy #15 onwards and see some real character progression: starting out as a shy, awkward teenager, growing in confidence and into himself (even landing a hot gf in Gwen Stacy) during the Romita years, then losing that gf in a tragic way, then a blossoming romance with Mary Jane, marriage, MJ's pregnancy, loosing their baby (or did they?), Peter becoming a teacher etc, etc...that all felt like a proper life story to me, albeit one that was told over the course of 45 odd years in our time. I fully share that opinion. The error, if error there was, wasn't the marriage itself but making MJ a supermodel. Peter was always an everyman, and that's what his marriage should have been : that of an ordinary man. I would have liked to see Peter and MJ starting in his tiny apartment, moving to slightly larger digs eventually with new kind of ordinary problems superposed to the extraordinary ones faced by a web-slinging superhero. I wanted to see Peter face the sleepless nights of a new father, using his webbing to improvise emergency diapers, swinging across the city to arrive in time before the daycare center closes, have to convince the kid not to bring a web-shooter to show-and-tell day... There's a lot that can be extracted from the life of a young parent; Spidey's personal life doesn't all have to be about chasing girls like a perpetual single teenager. Yes, that would have "aged" the character. But so what? It's not true that younger readers only care about young heroes. When I started reading Tarzan, he had a grown son; Bob Morane was in his early thirties; The FF were a family; Daredevil was old enough to be a practicing lawyer; Tony Stark had a mustache (he must be old!) and Captain America was from the '40s. And if readers really want a teenage Spider-man, there was the Ultimate version! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 17, 2016 13:17:11 GMT -5
starting out as a shy, awkward teenager, growing in confidence and into himself (even landing a hot gf in Gwen Stacy) during the Romita years, then losing that gf in a tragic way, then a blossoming romance with Mary Jane, marriage, MJ's pregnancy, loosing their baby (or did they?), Peter becoming a teacher etc For a very loose summary of the first 45 years of the character's history, that's more or less it. I can't help but make a couple of observations, though. One is a fact, the other a feeling. The relationship with MJ wasn't at all that straightforward. Conway did pair the two of them together, almost immediately after getting rid of Gwen; but after Wein's run, which didn't alter anything other than Betty Brand (who became Leeds), Wolffman effectively put and end to the romance in ASM #183. For almost a decade, there was no significant other to speak of, unless we consider Spider-Man, who had Felicia. When MJ came back in ASM #243, she did as a friend. The second proposal came out of the blue. Peter becoming a teacher actually happened twice; once at the end of the 80's and then with JMS, in Homecoming. I mention this, because I have the feeling that, in between, Peter actually went backwards. Just before JMS, he was sharing a pad again, with an even younger looking Randy Robertson. It's only my impression, but he certainly didn't feel older to me, than he did when Stern was writing the book. That changed with JMS. Maybe it takes good writers, to portrait a character acting exactly his age. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jul 17, 2016 13:28:56 GMT -5
I will second the confusion for Captain Marvel's death being a nomination. Maybe the idea of a superhero being felled by cancer is a bit lame to some but I think it is a very powerful and agree with previous statements about it being a very strong storyline. It brought an element of realism to the notion of being a superhero...that despite all of their power and abilities, they still can be affected by illnesses like any other being. In this case, it was both drawn and written beautifully by Starlin and stands as one of his best. Alas, as with anything I am sure some people disliked it....
Gwen and Norman. Never read it but the fact that something like that exists disgusts me. As a reader who doesn't venture much into stuff from the past 20 years, this is one of the reasons. If this exists, why would I read stories from a Marvel world where this is prevalent and part of the story? What purpose does it serve? Shock value? It takes a classic character who, as far as I know had little interaction with Norman Osborn, and degrades her. Yes, Yellowjacket beating his wife was bad but it was an attempt to highlight a real-life problem...I just think it fell short.
This arc ruined Stracynski. He started with some okay stuff and seemed to be a decent fit for Spider-Man and then this happened. Has he done much since? Or anything super successful? My point exactly. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 17, 2016 13:55:18 GMT -5
Has he done much since? Or anything super successful? My point exactly. Well, he co-writes Sense8 with The Wachowskis. He also shared credit for World War Z. That's far more success than any other Spider-writer has ever achieved. |
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Post by String on Jul 17, 2016 17:24:41 GMT -5
I agree that it was interesting but you just proved my point. He has been one of my favorites from Avengers #1 as Ant-man/Giant-man. I followed him through his Goliath and Yellowjackets days and really thought he was a key member. Along comes his event and Shooter Paints him as a hero that never quite measured up to everyone else. Huh ? At the conclusion he's cleared but no longer a hero and he never quite reaches the heights that he enjoyed during the Silver/Bronze age. I don't know about that.. he was pretty important during the Initiative era... he basically became the trainer for the next generation of the Avengers (even if Marvel has forgotten they exist)... he was the mentor/star of two books (arguably Avengers: The Initiative, then Avengers: Academy), and he was banging Tigra, which counts for something . I think it was Dan Slott in Mighty Avengers who came up with the interesting concept for Pym being the Scientist Supreme ala all of his inventions and tech border on being nigh-magical in scope and function. It may not make much sense but I give Slott credit for at least trying to think of new directions for him. I would vote for the Crossing but for two reasons. One, Tony being an agent of Kang isn't as bad as the solution of Teen Tony, a much worse concept. Two, Busiek in Avengers Forever tried his best to salvage some sense from that chaos. So with the list given, I have to go with Norm and Gwen. The only good thing that resulted from that was when I sold those issues of that story on eBay awhile back. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Jul 17, 2016 21:03:42 GMT -5
Am I really the only person in the forum (the world?) who loved Sins Past and what it revealed had happened between Norman and Gwen?
I mean, I get that it was a story that didn't necessarily need to be told, but man, that story was so well paced and so damn gripping that I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't wait for each issue as it came out. Far from soiling Gwen's character, I think it added to it imersurably and made her much more three-dimensional by dint of making her fallible...vulnerable...human. I love all of JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man (the editorially mandated One More Day aside, of course), but I consider Sins Past to be the peak of that run.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2016 21:37:22 GMT -5
I don't know about that.. he was pretty important during the Initiative era... he basically became the trainer for the next generation of the Avengers (even if Marvel has forgotten they exist)... he was the mentor/star of two books (arguably Avengers: The Initiative, then Avengers: Academy), and he was banging Tigra, which counts for something . I think it was Dan Slott in Mighty Avengers who came up with the interesting concept for Pym being the Scientist Supreme ala all of his inventions and tech border on being nigh-magical in scope and function. It may not make much sense but I give Slott credit for at least trying to think of new directions for him. I would vote for the Crossing but for two reasons. One, Tony being an agent of Kang isn't as bad as the solution of Teen Tony, a much worse concept. Two, Busiek in Avengers Forever tried his best to salvage some sense from that chaos. So with the list given, I have to go with Norm and Gwen. The only good thing that resulted from that was when I sold those issues of that story on eBay awhile back. I think you're right, but the idea was developed mostly in Avengers Academy, so while I guess Slott did come up with it, I think Hopeless developed it most. Also, for the actual poll, I assume that the 'Tony Stark being an Agent of Kang' choice IS the Crossing. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 17, 2016 21:47:21 GMT -5
Am I really the only person in the forum (the world?) who loved Sins Past and what it revealed had happened between Norman and Gwen? I mean, I get that it was a story that didn't necessarily need to be told, but man, that story was so well paced and so damn gripping that I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't wait for each issue as it came out. Far from soiling Gwen's character, I think it added to it imersurably and made her much more three-dimensional by dint of making her fallible...vulnerable...human. I love all of JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man (the editorially mandated One More Day aside, of course), but I consider Sins Past to be the peak of that run. I haven't read it. And I tend not to pre-judge things I haven't read. In this case, however, the very idea is so skeevy and out of character that I'll happily pass. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 22:33:49 GMT -5
Am I really the only person in the forum (the world?) who loved Sins Past and what it revealed had happened between Norman and Gwen? I mean, I get that it was a story that didn't necessarily need to be told, but man, that story was so well paced and so damn gripping that I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't wait for each issue as it came out. Far from soiling Gwen's character, I think it added to it imersurably and made her much more three-dimensional by dint of making her fallible...vulnerable...human. I love all of JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man (the editorially mandated One More Day aside, of course), but I consider Sins Past to be the peak of that run. A well executed POS story is still a POS story, and the consensus is pretty much it's a POS story. I had dropped the Spidey line like stone before this came out and the coverage of the story pretty much confirmed for me I had made the right decision. I like a lot of what JMS has done, but when he lays a turd of a project it tends to stink to high heaven even though his skill as a writer can make it appear well executed. He's a technically talented writer (i.e. he has great technique and craft) but his decision making and idea generation in the plotting stages often leaves a lot to be desired, which is how I pretty much felt about the entirety of his work on ASM and his Strange mini is one of the absolute worst Doc stories I have ever had the displeasure of reading. However Midnight Nation and Rising Stars I thought were very good works (and I thought the Heroes series on NBC was a really bad copy of what he was doing on Rising Stars). However, almost all of his recent efforts at Image under the Joe's Comics imprint have left me cold to the point I don't even bother checking out projects he is working on unless I hear a lot of positive buzz, and I haven't heard positive buzz on his stuff in a long time. I think he works much better in a writer's room on television than as a solo writer on comics. As a show runner he has access to a vast pool of ideas which he can guide into well executed stories. As a comics writer, he has to rely on his own imagination which while occasionally fertile has more barren spots than some deserts, and his Marvel work as a whole lacked much in the terms of redeeming ideas even while being well crafted form a technical side. -M |
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 18, 2016 1:01:30 GMT -5
Let me echo that I too am surprised to see "Captain Marvel is killed off with Cancer" on here. I've never read it, but I thought that this was a universally loved story line, no? I voted OTHER because... ...the "One More Day" clusterf**k of Peter Parker and MJ having their marriage erased by Mephisto in order to save Aunt May's life, the attendant continuity reboot and retconing of basically every Spider-Man comic since 1987 and the utter mess that was the ensuing "Brand New Day" era leaves a taste in my mouth so bad that even typing about it is making me reach for the Listerine. Half agree. One More Day was about as terrible a story as there is. But I think the issue after One More Day is a great comic, as are most that followed. |
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 18, 2016 1:16:51 GMT -5
I can lend some expertise to this topic within Avengers and Spider-Man, what I know best.
Worst Spider-Man stories ever (chronological order)
Amazing Spider-Man #289 -- Ned Leeds revealed as the Hobgoblin. Just makes you want to claw your eyes out.
Live and Let Die -- Just a terribly told mess of a story with an unresolved mystery
Maximum Clonage -- The Clone Saga has a lot of rough bits and was overlong, but this was the nadir
Gathering of Five/Final Chapter -- Probably actually my vote for worst comic story ever. Certainly my vote for worst Spider-Man story. Return of Aunt May. A terrible ending to the series. I don't even know where to begin.
Sins Past
One More Day -- It's Mephisto's dialogue. "A love as pure as yours burns me down in Hell itself and I would see it ended."
Worst Avengers stories:
The Crossing -- Iron Man has been a sleeper agent for Kang for years. Kang is ready to reveal his pawn and destroy the Avengers. First victims: Gilgamesh and female Yellowjacket. Then reveal yourself by killing Luna's nanny! Also paved the way for a solid year of worthless Avengers comics
Lionheart of Avalon -- Plus the whole of Chuck Austen's run. But this one really hits all the marks. Plot points that make no sense, the revelation that Britain suffers damage whenever Captain Britain gets punched, confusion about Captain Britain's origin, Captain America randomly adopting children, deciding they'll be safer at Avengers Mansion than with relatives, the entirety of the Avengers shunning Hank like he's a super-villain...
Chaos -- Avengers #500. Same plot as #400 but more pretentious, with some characters having strange-sounding dialogue and most just not talking
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Post by tingramretro on Jul 18, 2016 1:30:04 GMT -5
i never really understood all the hatred towards One More Day. I was never that invested in the idea of a married Peter Parker; I didn't actually dislike it, but I grew up with a Peter who was generally unattached, so to me, that's who he is. And I do think it's a shame so many people seem to have given up on the character at that point, since I personally feel that Dan Slott's run on Spidey has been among the best in the character's history, particularly the brilliant Superior Spider-Man.
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Post by tingramretro on Jul 18, 2016 1:33:38 GMT -5
I agree that it was interesting but you just proved my point. He has been one of my favorites from Avengers #1 as Ant-man/Giant-man. I followed him through his Goliath and Yellowjackets days and really thought he was a key member. Along comes his event and Shooter Paints him as a hero that never quite measured up to everyone else. Huh ? At the conclusion he's cleared but no longer a hero and he never quite reaches the heights that he enjoyed during the Silver/Bronze age. I don't know about that.. he was pretty important during the Initiative era... he basically became the trainer for the next generation of the Avengers (even if Marvel has forgotten they exist)... he was the mentor/star of two books (arguably Avengers: The Initiative, then Avengers: Academy), and he was banging Tigra, which counts for something . And sadly, is something he's unlikely ever to manage again, given recent developments... |
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