|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Jul 18, 2016 4:21:22 GMT -5
Am I really the only person in the forum (the world?) who loved Sins Past and what it revealed had happened between Norman and Gwen? I mean, I get that it was a story that didn't necessarily need to be told, but man, that story was so well paced and so damn gripping that I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't wait for each issue as it came out. Far from soiling Gwen's character, I think it added to it imersurably and made her much more three-dimensional by dint of making her fallible...vulnerable...human. I love all of JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man (the editorially mandated One More Day aside, of course), but I consider Sins Past to be the peak of that run. In this forum? Easily answered, just open up a poll, sit back and enjoy the results. In the world? Surely not, I'm sure there's a good deal of disturbed individuals running around, who just get off fantasizing, about his son's hot teenage friends.  It was well executed, like most of his run, up to the point where he started to prolong it, by throwing wrenches in both camps. He just didn't know where to stop, it was all about piling up surprise after surprise, which carried the story to a point, where I no longer cared about it. Part six in particular, was a total mess. As for the actions depicted, adding to Gwen's character... that's a major thread drift. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jul 18, 2016 4:40:00 GMT -5
Gwen Stacy never really struck me as having a character. MJ was always more 'real'.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 18, 2016 5:57:00 GMT -5
i never really understood all the hatred towards One More Day. Speaking only for myself, the reason is a blatant disregard for history in order to tell an "edgy" story. We had access to Gwen's thought bubbles during the time she's supposed to have had a flng with Osborn. She never, ever showed any hint of being attracted to him or to older men. In that context, Sins Past is like revealing that Betty Cooper had sex with Mr. Weatherbee. Had Osborn been out of the deal and had the kids been Peter's, I could have bought it; still a retcon, as it was never suggested that Gwen and Peter ever slept together, but at least a retcon that fit with what we knew of the characters. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jul 18, 2016 6:27:52 GMT -5
I don't know about that.. he was pretty important during the Initiative era... he basically became the trainer for the next generation of the Avengers (even if Marvel has forgotten they exist)... he was the mentor/star of two books (arguably Avengers: The Initiative, then Avengers: Academy), and he was banging Tigra, which counts for something  . And sadly, is something he's unlikely ever to manage again, given recent developments... Did I miss something? |
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 18, 2016 8:15:10 GMT -5
Gwen Stacy never really struck me as having a character. MJ was always more 'real'. She was sweet and well adjusted. The irony of life is that those are the kinds of people you want to live next to but they're simply not as compelling as characters or as real people. |
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 18, 2016 8:37:15 GMT -5
Guys if you are trying to get me to read this alleged Gwen and Norman story, you are doing a good job of it. I'm like so curious I am bout to be the cat that it kills.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,210 
|
Post by Confessor on Jul 18, 2016 8:39:18 GMT -5
Am I really the only person in the forum (the world?) who loved Sins Past and what it revealed had happened between Norman and Gwen? I mean, I get that it was a story that didn't necessarily need to be told, but man, that story was so well paced and so damn gripping that I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't wait for each issue as it came out. Far from soiling Gwen's character, I think it added to it imersurably and made her much more three-dimensional by dint of making her fallible...vulnerable...human. I love all of JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man (the editorially mandated One More Day aside, of course), but I consider Sins Past to be the peak of that run. A well executed POS story is still a POS story, and the consensus is pretty much it's a POS story. Well, whether it's a POS story or not is entirely subjective and popular consensus, outside of this most discerning of forums perhaps, has never been much of a measure of quality. I had dropped the Spidey line like stone before this came out and the coverage of the story pretty much confirmed for me I had made the right decision. I like a lot of what JMS has done, but when he lays a turd of a project it tends to stink to high heaven even though his skill as a writer can make it appear well executed. He's a technically talented writer (i.e. he has great technique and craft) but his decision making and idea generation in the plotting stages often leaves a lot to be desired, which is how I pretty much felt about the entirety of his work on ASM and his Strange mini is one of the absolute worst Doc stories I have ever had the displeasure of reading. However Midnight Nation and Rising Stars I thought were very good works (and I thought the Heroes series on NBC was a really bad copy of what he was doing on Rising Stars). However, almost all of his recent efforts at Image under the Joe's Comics imprint have left me cold to the point I don't even bother checking out projects he is working on unless I hear a lot of positive buzz, and I haven't heard positive buzz on his stuff in a long time. I think he works much better in a writer's room on television than as a solo writer on comics. As a show runner he has access to a vast pool of ideas which he can guide into well executed stories. As a comics writer, he has to rely on his own imagination which while occasionally fertile has more barren spots than some deserts, and his Marvel work as a whole lacked much in the terms of redeeming ideas even while being well crafted form a technical side. That's all well and good, but clearly you've not read the comics in question, so your conclusions regarding whether they are a case of technique over substance are somewhat ill-founded, to say the least. I can quite understand that the basic premise for Sins Past, when reduced to a throw away soundbite like "Norman and Gwen did the nasty and had kids!", sounds ridiculous and abhorrent to a lot of classic comic fans. However, the way in which the story unfolded, as well as the personal and emotional drama that it put the main characters through, really made for a great read IMO. As a story, I think it's a lot better than many people might assume it would be or had any right to be. i never really understood all the hatred towards One More Day. I was never that invested in the idea of a married Peter Parker; I didn't actually dislike it, but I grew up with a Peter who was generally unattached, so to me, that's who he is. And I do think it's a shame so many people seem to have given up on the character at that point, since I personally feel that Dan Slott's run on Spidey has been among the best in the character's history, particularly the brilliant Superior Spider-Man. I hung on in there for a lot longer than I should've done really. I only finally ditched Spidey comics earlier this year! There were some stories in the post-OMD era that I really enjoyed, like "New Ways To Die" and "Spider-Verse" for instance. But there was a lot more that were quite poor or really annoying from the point of view of continuity (Felicia Hardy was especially hard done by, seemingly having decades of character development thrown out and reverted to how she was just after she and Peter broke up in the '80s). I agree that Superior Spider-Man was very good, although it went on a little too long for my tastes. But Superior Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man. It was Doc Ock inhabiting the body of Peter Parker. When the best Spider-Man comics for close to a decade are the ones that don't even feature the real Spider-Man, you know that the character/franchsie is up the creek without a paddle. In the world? Surely not, I'm sure there's a good deal of disturbed individuals running around, who just get off fantasizing, about his son's hot teenage friends. Oooh...low blow! Liking Sins Past does NOT make me some kind of lecherous old pervert. There are lots of other things that make me like that!  It was well executed, like most of his run, up to the point where he started to prolong it, by throwing wrenches in both camps. He just didn't know where to stop, it was all about piling up surprise after surprise, which carried the story to a point, where I no longer cared about it. Part six in particular, was a total mess. Some of what you're disliking here could be the result of the well documented editorial interferance that JMS was subjected to. I disagree with your verdict of the final part, but then I never had any problem with the kids being Norman's. As for the actions depicted, adding to Gwen's character... that's a major thread drift. You're right, it is a topic for another thread and one I believe you and I have discussed before on at least two occasions.  Guys if you are trying to get me to read this alleged Gwen and Norman story, you are doing a good job of it. I'm like so curious I am bout to be the cat that it kills. Do it! It's a great story arc. Remember Adam, you know me and you trust me. I'm always right. |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Jul 18, 2016 8:39:27 GMT -5
She never, ever showed any hint of being attracted to him or to older men. Unlike MJ, not to mention what Osborn insinuated he'd do with her, if he had twenty years less on his shoulders. |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Jul 18, 2016 8:51:39 GMT -5
I hung on in there for a lot longer than I should've done really. I only finally ditched Spidey comics earlier this year! In the world? Surely not, I'm sure there's a good deal of disturbed individuals running around, who just get off fantasizing, about his son's hot teenage friends. Oooh...low blow! Liking Sins Past does NOT make me some kind of lecherous old pervert. There are lots of other things that make me like that! It was well executed, like most of his run, up to the point where he started to prolong it, by throwing wrenches in both camps. He just didn't know where to stop, it was all about piling up surprise after surprise, which carried the story to a point, where I no longer cared about it. Part six in particular, was a total mess. Some of what you're disliking here could be the result of the well documented editorial interferance that JMS was subjected to. I disagree with your verdict of the final part, but then I never had any problem with the kids being Norman's. As for the actions depicted, adding to Gwen's character... that's a major thread drift. You're right, it is a topic for another thread and one I believe you and I have discussed before on at least two occasions. You lasted a little bit longer, I quit ASM with December's issue.  Could be, only a select group of people would know. You have a much better memory, I don't recall either. |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,210
|
Post by Confessor on Jul 18, 2016 8:52:53 GMT -5
She never, ever showed any hint of being attracted to him or to older men. Unlike MJ, not to mention what Osborn insinuated he'd do with her, if he had twenty years less on his shoulders. I'm trying hard not to let this thread drift into a Sins Past discussion, but I will just say that, from a psychological stand point, Gwen having been raised alone by her much older father, with no female presence in the household to speak of, and no doubt being routinely surrounded by her father's friends, who would have been around his age, might have meant that Gwen could have feasibly felt much more comfortable in the company of older men than those of her own generation. I don't mean that in a sexual way necessarily, but it might have meant that being seduced by Norman wasn't such a weird thing as it might have been for other young girls in her peer group. This is part of why, for me, Norman's successful exploitation and seduction of Gwen seemed to fit with both of their characters. |
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 18, 2016 9:01:36 GMT -5
Guys if you are trying to get me to read this alleged Gwen and Norman story, you are doing a good job of it. I'm like so curious I am bout to be the cat that it kills. Do it! It's a great story arc. Remember Adam, you know me and you trust me. I'm always right. Unanimous like or dislike for something usually peeks my interest. Sometimes the consensus is right, sometimes not. I've never been a life long Spiderman fan, and have always just sampled Spiderman here and there through out my 25 years doing this so far. So character history (heck I didn't even know Gwen wasn't still dead) isn't going to be a turn off to me. And yeah Confessor, you have steered me to some good stories, so I do. Even if it isn't Bucky O'Hare in your avatar. ;-) |
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Jul 18, 2016 9:18:07 GMT -5
I will just say that, from a psychological stand point, Gwen having been raised alone by her much older father, with no female presence in the household to speak of, and no doubt being routinely surrounded by her father's friends, who would have been around his age, might have meant that Gwen could have feasibly felt much more comfortable in the company of older men than those of her own generation. I don't mean that in a sexual way necessarily, but it might have meant that being seduced by Norman wasn't such a weird thing as it might have been for other young girls in her peer group. This is part of why, for me, Norman's successful exploitation and seduction of Gwen seemed to fit with both of their characters. I read a long dissertation on the subject, but lightly dismiss it as a cliché.  |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 18, 2016 9:31:24 GMT -5
Mentioning a bad storyline to stay on topic : Wolverine's memories being implants, from Wolverine #50. Yuck. Talk about messing things up. After years of building up this mysterious persona who seemed to be older than he looked, who seemed to have done a lot of shady things, and after years of revealing his past snippet by snippet... IN YOUR FACE, READERS! IT'S ALL UP IN THE AIR AGAIN!!! I lost all interest in Logan's history after that. Which, after reading about Origin and stuff like Remus (or is it Romulus? One of those, anyway) is probably for the best. And now... Sins past: Tokyo drift!!! Gwen having been raised alone by her much older father, with no female presence in the household to speak of, and no doubt being routinely surrounded by her father's friends, who would have been around his age, might have meant that Gwen could have feasibly felt much more comfortable in the company of older men than those of her own generation. That is quite true as a hypothetical, but my point is that it was not the case in the actual comics. We were there; we saw how Gwen acted; we were even privy to her thoughts, thanks to the occasional thought balloon. She looked very comfortable with her youthful friends, and not at all into older men! (Unless I missed something. I'm pretty bad at understanding human behaviour). The retcon showing us MJ's childhood, a few issues before the marriage, fit a lot better with what we knew of her. She had seemed to be afraid of responsibility and serious commitment in the '60s and '70s, and the retcon just filled in the details. |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,210
|
Post by Confessor on Jul 18, 2016 9:47:42 GMT -5
I will just say that, from a psychological stand point, Gwen having been raised alone by her much older father, with no female presence in the household to speak of, and no doubt being routinely surrounded by her father's friends, who would have been around his age, might have meant that Gwen could have feasibly felt much more comfortable in the company of older men than those of her own generation. I don't mean that in a sexual way necessarily, but it might have meant that being seduced by Norman wasn't such a weird thing as it might have been for other young girls in her peer group. This is part of why, for me, Norman's successful exploitation and seduction of Gwen seemed to fit with both of their characters. I read a long dissertation on the subject, but lightly dismiss it as a cliché. Oh, it's definitely a cliché, but then American superhero comics have never been light on cliché. Looks like an interesting article there though, Ozy. Thanks. And now... Sins past: Tokyo drift!!! Gwen having been raised alone by her much older father, with no female presence in the household to speak of, and no doubt being routinely surrounded by her father's friends, who would have been around his age, might have meant that Gwen could have feasibly felt much more comfortable in the company of older men than those of her own generation. That is quite true as a hypothetical, but my point is that it was not the case in the actual comics. We were there; we saw how Gwen acted; we were even privy to her thoughts, thanks to the occasional thought balloon. She looked very comfortable with her youthful friends, and not at all into older men! (Unless I missed something. I'm pretty bad at understanding human behaviour). The retcon showing us MJ's childhood, a few issues before the marriage, fit a lot better with what we knew of her. She had seemed to be afraid of responsibility and serious commitment in the '60s and '70s, and the retcon just filled in the details. Sure, I get that we never saw Gwen thinking, "Phwoar...look at how hot Harry's father is!" during the Silver Age. But there are two problems with this reasoning, as I see it: firstly, we clearly were never privy to ALL of Gwen's thoughts, as is usual for fiction on the screen, page or stage (I mean, reasonably most of her life, between meeting Peter Parker and dying at the hands of the Green Goblin, must've occurred off-panel), and secondly, it is in the very nature of retcons to feature a revision of the fictional narrative as presented in an earlier installment of the story. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jul 18, 2016 9:53:29 GMT -5
And sadly, is something he's unlikely ever to manage again, given recent developments... Did I miss something? Yep. Hank left Earth, merged with Ultron and believed dead by his friends, in the Rage of Ultron graphic novel. He's since returned but, as seen last month, he's still merged with Ultron and there's very little of the original Dr Pym left inside it. Basically, he no longer exists from the chest down. He's now simply a head and upper torso built into a robot body. |
|
.
