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Post by Action Ace on Aug 1, 2016 14:06:05 GMT -5
DC would have better sales if Geoff Johns wrote more books.
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Post by Action Ace on Aug 1, 2016 14:07:19 GMT -5
I tried the first eight or so issues of New 52 Justice League and couldn't believe how poorly written it was. It was like I was reading anti-Alan Moore. I also read the first arc of his Aquaman and I think that was far superior to his Justice League. I get the feeling the mandate for Justice League was "big-screen and dumb." The first arc wasn't good, but the rest was the best a regular JLA title has been since Mark Waid's tenure.
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Post by Action Ace on Aug 1, 2016 14:08:34 GMT -5
I consider Johns' creation of the emotional spectrum right up there with Waid's creation of the Speed Force as two of the most innovative mainstream concepts of the last 20 years. I've enjoyed the majority of his DC work over the years. I loved his overall story arc with Black Adam that ranged from JSA to 52 to other assorted titles and minis that featured love, loss, rage, and redemption. So, congrats on his promotion, well deserved I believe. I love the emotional spectrum concept myself. Geoff is my favorite Green Lantern writer of all time.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 1, 2016 14:17:56 GMT -5
but he's stayed the course to DC's average. Isn't that mrp's point? That's not how I read it, it seemed to me that he was saying that DC was in a worse place now than they were before Johns took charge and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sure the drop from 2014 to 2015 was the largest drop in the 16 year period I looked at but it's really not that far off from the average so I think the claim that he's caused things to be worse than they were a tad hyperbolic. I'm not saying he's the savior or a golden boy, I'm just saying he's not the poison in the well that some claim...and I don't even care for the guy's writing all that much.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 14:54:24 GMT -5
That's not how I read it, it seemed to me that he was saying that DC was in a worse place now than they were before Johns took charge and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sure the drop from 2014 to 2015 was the largest drop in the 16 year period I looked at but it's really not that far off from the average so I think the claim that he's caused things to be worse than they were a tad hyperbolic. I'm not saying he's the savior or a golden boy, I'm just saying he's not the poison in the well that some claim...and I don't even care for the guy's writing all that much. Look at median sales on titles and per title average, and they are lower. The best books are selling better, but the rest of the line is selling worse, so the line as a whole appears to be staying the same, but the sales on everything but the top 4-5 titles is much lower than it was in the pre-Johns era. That is not healthy for your bottom line, especially when one of those top tiltes falls out of favor (look at the drop in GL sales while Johns wa son the title in the new52 era-a steady decline after the ebbot then he leaves and the titles falls off the face of the earth leaving it a bottom seller and only the emergence of Harley Quinn as a sales juggernaut helped balance out the line-wide sales. The line as a whole has only declined slightly but the Johns era has sen those sales concentrated into fewer regular titles and the event titles, while sales on everything else have shrunk. That concentration of sales into fewer titles while the rest of the line is less healthy is not good for DC, it leaves them vulnerable to the fickleness of consumers; if one of the big sellers falls out of favor there is nothing to make up for those sales in the line. When Batman started to slide in sales from averaging 125K + a month to just under 100K a month we saw those line wide average start to fell more quickly too. Nothing below the top 4-5 titles is propping up the line or contributing to it's health. Green Lantern's readership base had 3 components-the hardcore GL fans who would read GL no matter what, the hardcore Johns fans that follow him form book to book no matter what, and the rest of the readership who buys what is interesting, hot or getting buzz. When the new52 started GL was a buzz book, but by the end of his first year on GL in the new52 Johns had lost that third component, and sales had dipped because readership was only parts 1 and 2, then Johns left, and component 2 was gone and GL sales fell even more to only the hardcore GL/DC fan customer base. It went from a book on the brink of 100K a month to barely cracking 30K in a year and a half. But the damage was done while Johns was still on the book losing that third component, which is the largest part of comic buyers, and the most fickle. For all the success on the book, mostly fueled by one event cross-over after another to generate buzz, Johns was unable to make the book stick in the long term. His strategy of events and cross-overs is what fuels the spike and attrition sales pattern, but the spikes don't last, and most of the line hovers under 40K a month and shrinking even while Batman, Harly Quinn and the current event prop up the monthly averages on units moved. If you get a swing and a miss on one of those props (say Convergence and DC You) you seel the line start to plummet badly (which we did). Why ? Because under Johns and Didio's approach the line is top heavy and unhealhty and in much worse shape overall. It's a house of cards. They hit on Rebirth no doubt, but how ling will the spike last? Will sales of the median and poor sellers creep up over 50K on average or will the line still be top heavy? What happens if Batman's trajectory follows Green Lantern's with Snyder's departure? What happens when he buzz wear's off and Rebirth isn't shiny new and that third component's attention has drifted elsewhere again. John's approach has left the line vulnerable because it is top heavy and reliant on those sales spikes to prop up it's averages. Before Johns and Didio, the line as a whole was stronger because the sales were spread out much more over a larger number of titles allowing a stronger foundation for sales much less vulnerable to the vagaries of missed events or poorly received creative changes. Take the same numbers thwhtguardian gave us, subtract out the top 4 DC sellers each month and see what the decline/attrition rates are-it will tell a different story of the health of the line. List all the titles DC puts out each month and find the median sales (not the average which is propped up by those top heavy titles). See where the median sales numbers have gone over the same period of time. Those will give you a better sense of the health of the line as a whole rather than inflated numbers of the top sellers propped up by events and variant sales. People hail Johns as the savior and everything right with DC, I don't agree. I think the Johns way of ding things has only exacerbated DC's problems and left much of the line neglected and failing because they weren't his pet favorites. -M
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Aug 1, 2016 14:55:48 GMT -5
That's not how I read it, it seemed to me that he was saying that DC was in a worse place now than they were before Johns took charge and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sure the drop from 2014 to 2015 was the largest drop in the 16 year period I looked at but it's really not that far off from the average so I think the claim that he's caused things to be worse than they were a tad hyperbolic. I'm not saying he's the savior or a golden boy, I'm just saying he's not the poison in the well that some claim...and I don't even care for the guy's writing all that much. I see. Maybe I can simplify the debate between the two of you in this way: mrp: Johns is hardly going to be a savior to DC. He's been part of their business-as-usual model all along. thwhtguardian: He hasn't cost them sales. Am I getting it now?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 1, 2016 15:06:23 GMT -5
Looked up the Comic Industry's Annual Sales for 2015 vs 2014 according to Comichron. These figures supposedly includes digital. In 2015, the industry had over a 10% sales increase, breaking the billion dollar level. Applying the DC sales penetrations from above we find:
Year Ttl Sls % Chg DC Pene DC $ % Chg
2014 $935.0 28.9% $269.8
2015 $1,030.0 10.2% 25.8% $265.2 -1.7%
So, DC dropped almost 2% in sales or lost $4.6 million dollars while the industry increased by 10.2% or plus $95 million dollars. I'd categorize it as pretty disastrous and someones' head should have rolled. Wasn't this the year that DC moved it's operations to the West Coast as well. That move would have generated increased operating costs as well.
I don't read the books any longer and have no opinion on Geoff Johns, but Dan Didio should have been canned for sure
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Post by String on Aug 1, 2016 16:41:07 GMT -5
I consider Johns' creation of the emotional spectrum right up there with Waid's creation of the Speed Force as two of the most innovative mainstream concepts of the last 20 years.I've enjoyed the majority of his DC work over the years. I loved his overall story arc with Black Adam that ranged from JSA to 52 to other assorted titles and minis that featured love, loss, rage, and redemption. So, congrats on his promotion, well deserved I believe. How is copying what was already done by other creators for green and yellow with their attendant emotions and saying all the other colors have it too in any way innovative? That's pretty much textbook derivative thinking. Waid did something that hadn't been seen or conceived of before witht he Speed Force, Johns did what others had done but with more colors. -M As any good writer will do, Johns expanded on his initial ideas in GL Rebirth to create concepts and characters that added more conflict, drama, and tragedy to the GL mythos. He re-energized the entire franchise by doing so. As you suggest, he may have built upon previous works to create something new and exciting but doesn't every writer do that to some extent? For I see nary a difference if so.
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Post by String on Aug 1, 2016 16:50:30 GMT -5
I tried the first eight or so issues of New 52 Justice League and couldn't believe how poorly written it was. It was like I was reading anti-Alan Moore. I also read the first arc of his Aquaman and I think that was far superior to his Justice League. I get the feeling the mandate for Justice League was "big-screen and dumb." The first arc wasn't good, but the rest was the best a regular JLA title has been since Mark Waid's tenure. Agreed. The first arc was rocky but I was surprised by how good the following story arcs were. He ended on a great note, the Darkseid War, despite some hiccups, was a great superhero epic. And for the record, I've never bought into any notion that Johns is some sort of saviour/Golden Boy for DC. Yes, his rise and popularity was consistent with the arrival of Dido but I think such perceptions are the result of that connection. For me, the more important factor is the quality of his writing and stories which he has maintained and exhibited strongly throughout his tenure at DC so far.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 1, 2016 18:39:28 GMT -5
That's not how I read it, it seemed to me that he was saying that DC was in a worse place now than they were before Johns took charge and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sure the drop from 2014 to 2015 was the largest drop in the 16 year period I looked at but it's really not that far off from the average so I think the claim that he's caused things to be worse than they were a tad hyperbolic. I'm not saying he's the savior or a golden boy, I'm just saying he's not the poison in the well that some claim...and I don't even care for the guy's writing all that much. Look at median sales on titles and per title average, and they are lower. The best books are selling better, but the rest of the line is selling worse, so the line as a whole appears to be staying the same, but the sales on everything but the top 4-5 titles is much lower than it was in the pre-Johns era. That is not healthy for your bottom line, especially when one of those top tiltes falls out of favor (look at the drop in GL sales while Johns wa son the title in the new52 era-a steady decline after the ebbot then he leaves and the titles falls off the face of the earth leaving it a bottom seller and only the emergence of Harley Quinn as a sales juggernaut helped balance out the line-wide sales. The line as a whole has only declined slightly but the Johns era has sen those sales concentrated into fewer regular titles and the event titles, while sales on everything else have shrunk. That concentration of sales into fewer titles while the rest of the line is less healthy is not good for DC, it leaves them vulnerable to the fickleness of consumers; if one of the big sellers falls out of favor there is nothing to make up for those sales in the line. When Batman started to slide in sales from averaging 125K + a month to just under 100K a month we saw those line wide average start to fell more quickly too. Nothing below the top 4-5 titles is propping up the line or contributing to it's health. Green Lantern's readership base had 3 components-the hardcore GL fans who would read GL no matter what, the hardcore Johns fans that follow him form book to book no matter what, and the rest of the readership who buys what is interesting, hot or getting buzz. When the new52 started GL was a buzz book, but by the end of his first year on GL in the new52 Johns had lost that third component, and sales had dipped because readership was only parts 1 and 2, then Johns left, and component 2 was gone and GL sales fell even more to only the hardcore GL/DC fan customer base. It went from a book on the brink of 100K a month to barely cracking 30K in a year and a half. But the damage was done while Johns was still on the book losing that third component, which is the largest part of comic buyers, and the most fickle. For all the success on the book, mostly fueled by one event cross-over after another to generate buzz, Johns was unable to make the book stick in the long term. His strategy of events and cross-overs is what fuels the spike and attrition sales pattern, but the spikes don't last, and most of the line hovers under 40K a month and shrinking even while Batman, Harly Quinn and the current event prop up the monthly averages on units moved. If you get a swing and a miss on one of those props (say Convergence and DC You) you seel the line start to plummet badly (which we did). Why ? Because under Johns and Didio's approach the line is top heavy and unhealhty and in much worse shape overall. It's a house of cards. They hit on Rebirth no doubt, but how ling will the spike last? Will sales of the median and poor sellers creep up over 50K on average or will the line still be top heavy? What happens if Batman's trajectory follows Green Lantern's with Snyder's departure? What happens when he buzz wear's off and Rebirth isn't shiny new and that third component's attention has drifted elsewhere again. John's approach has left the line vulnerable because it is top heavy and reliant on those sales spikes to prop up it's averages. Before Johns and Didio, the line as a whole was stronger because the sales were spread out much more over a larger number of titles allowing a stronger foundation for sales much less vulnerable to the vagaries of missed events or poorly received creative changes. Take the same numbers thwhtguardian gave us, subtract out the top 4 DC sellers each month and see what the decline/attrition rates are-it will tell a different story of the health of the line. List all the titles DC puts out each month and find the median sales (not the average which is propped up by those top heavy titles). See where the median sales numbers have gone over the same period of time. Those will give you a better sense of the health of the line as a whole rather than inflated numbers of the top sellers propped up by events and variant sales. People hail Johns as the savior and everything right with DC, I don't agree. I think the Johns way of ding things has only exacerbated DC's problems and left much of the line neglected and failing because they weren't his pet favorites. -M It could certainly be a heck of a lot healthier but I don't see the top heavy trend as being symptomatic of Johns as it was that way before he took over too. I think you'd have to go back to the 70's to see a real diverse line of sellers as in the last thirty years at DC it's pretty much been Batman and Superman flip flopping for the top seller depending on popularity, then probably Justice League and then some flavor of the moment book driven by a popular writer or artist.
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Post by hondobrode on Aug 2, 2016 22:02:14 GMT -5
I tried the first eight or so issues of New 52 Justice League and couldn't believe how poorly written it was. It was like I was reading anti-Alan Moore. I also read the first arc of his Aquaman and I think that was far superior to his Justice League. I get the feeling the mandate for Justice League was "big-screen and dumb." That's the only thing of his I've really disliked, but it got better later on.
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