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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 21, 2016 20:48:31 GMT -5
I had trouble with this lately when I decided to work on finishing my run of the Captain Marvel series with Carol Danvers that started in ... 2012, I think, and ended in 2013. It had 16 to 18 issues and I had stopped about #10. The local comic shop had issues numbered #11 to #15 or #16 or so, and I thought "cool, I'll be finishing this run pretty soon." But when I got home, I discovered that the last two issues I had were from the series that started over again with a new #1 in 2014 (I think) and lasted about the same number of issues. And because the new series had started so soon after the just-canceled series, the cover format was very much the same, so it wasn't obvious that the comics were a year and half to two years later than the comics I wanted. I wouldn't have minded so much if the new series had been even a little bit good. And I still haven't finished off that Captain Marvel series from 2012. These days, I look up the cover on GCD or Mikes Amazing World of Comics to make sure I'm buying the correct issue. I hate it too.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 22, 2016 7:59:02 GMT -5
If Marvel and DC want to do the season model, that's fine. I can see the benefits of this method, particularly given how most series are designed to be read in six issue arcs nowadays. The problem is that they're not marketing their books to reflect this. What I would do is highlight the story arc title on the cover with "Part 1 of 6" being clearly indicated on the cover as well. I see this as the best of both worlds. This would make it easier for readers to find series and would satisfy Marvel and DC's desire to release a new number one as often as humanly possible.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 22, 2016 8:21:22 GMT -5
I think if they want to do that they should do what Dark Horse does... have each story line have a different title, and put '#202 in a series' in the Indicia... they get their multiple #1s, and there's still some way to tell what's whay.
@ MRP: I don't think it worked worse before.. comic books were clearly more profitable in the past than they are now. The actual comics are essential loss leaders to test IPs for TV and movies right now.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 22, 2016 10:04:05 GMT -5
Where's the hard data that back issue sales pump new issue sales in the current market of 2016? That's a very narrowly defined question. I suggest some alternative questions: Where's the hard data that back issue sales pump new profits? Answer: the movies. Without back issue sales there would be no long term hard core of fans. Where's the hard data that back issue sales of books in general pump new book sales? Answer: Amazon. Imagine if Amazon only sold the books published this month, and made only minimal effort to promote other books. Instead, it promotes all past books almost as much as it promotes the current crop, and creates suggestions to encourage the buying of back copies. Where's the hard data that back issue sales can turn a failing comics industry around? The period from the late 1970s to the kid 1990s: a boom in sales that depended on comic shops. These in turn depended on back issues for their day to day survival. The back issues turn new issues into an investment, and they keep the fans excited during lean years. Of course, the whole concept of back issues has been moot since the early 1990s, when continuity was effectively abandoned. Fans who care about stories were driven away, into the arms of TV and movies. TV and movies care more and more about back issues. They make serious money from box sets and repeat sales. Comics dropped the ball in the 1990s and TV picked it up. New mainstream comics are not made with long term continuity in mind. So back issues have no value. So it would not make any difference if Marvel and DC chose to focus on back issue: they have killed the long term story, the goose that laid the golden egg. But TV and movies have nurtured that goose (it takes many years). TV and movies have developed a following that cares passionately about their back issues, and they are laughing all the way to the bank.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 22, 2016 10:08:20 GMT -5
I think if they want to do that they should do what Dark Horse does... have each story line have a different title, and put '#202 in a series' in the Indicia... they get their multiple #1s, and there's still some way to tell what's whay. I forgot to mention that, but I agree. You please the #1 obsessed speculators, the "I just want to follow good story-lines" readers and the hardcore collectors.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 10:56:55 GMT -5
Where's the hard data that back issue sales pump new issue sales in the current market of 2016? That's a very narrowly defined question. I suggest some alternative questions: Where's the hard data that back issue sales pump new profits? Answer: the movies. Without back issue sales there would be no long term hard core of fans. This is simply wrong. The "long term hard core" comic book fans aren't enough people to make a movie successful much less start a movie franchise. The movies are successful because they figured out how to appeal to people who don't care one bit about comic books and got them to buy tickets. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Amazon doesn't sell new comics or back issues. Members of the Amazon Marketplace do. Amazon itself sells the various trades and OGN's that the publishers produce. As far as the "suggestions" it's a computer algorithm that is based on what people who buy those particular books also bought. If you're buying trades of old stuff, you're likely going to also buy trades of other old stuff. The suggestions actual sales figures are what matter. I question whether comic shops were depending on back issue sales for their survival. I suspect survival was due to new issue sales and back issues were the icing on the cake. That said, you're talking about a business model that is at least twenty-plus years old. What other entertainment industries are using twenty-plus year old business models? If the fans were driven away then who is buying the current books. Everyone says that they aren't bringing in new fans. Now you're saying they have to be because the old fans all went away. I'm a bit lost as to what you're saying about TV and Movies and box sets and repeat sales. I'm assuming you're talking about DVDs. But sales of DVDs and Blue-Rays have been dropping precipitously since at least 2013. And honestly the previous model for comics had NOTHING remotely like the sale of box sets. It does now in the sale of trade paperbacks. It used to be if you missed a comic on the newstands you were shit out of luck unless you could find a back issue. And the publisher got ZERO money from that back issue. Now they can sell a trade and it's pure dosh for them. You're making the assumption that the "long term story" is the goose that laid the golden egg. Comics sold at their peak when virtually every story was a one-and-done and there was virtually no cross-over between books. The tight continuity was change in the business model as a result of changing market forces. You're assuming that that same model will still work. But the current business model seems to disagree with you. Why aren't you calling for a return to anthology comics with multiple one-and-done stories? Because that was the most successful business model.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 22, 2016 12:06:19 GMT -5
That's a very narrowly defined question. I suggest some alternative questions: Where's the hard data that back issue sales pump new profits? Answer: the movies. Without back issue sales there would be no long term hard core of fans. This is simply wrong. The "long term hard core" comic book fans aren't enough people to make a movie successful much less start a movie franchise. The movies are successful because they figured out how to appeal to people who don't care one bit about comic books and got them to buy tickets. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Amazon doesn't sell new comics or back issues. Members of the Amazon Marketplace do. Amazon itself sells the various trades and OGN's that the publishers produce. As far as the "suggestions" it's a computer algorithm that is based on what people who by those particular books also bought. If you're buying trades of old stuff, you're likely going to also buy trades of other old stuff. The suggestions actual sales figures are what matter. I question whether comic shops were depending on back issue sales for their survival. I suspect survival was due to new issue sales and back issues were the icing on the cake. That said, you're talking about a business model that is at least twenty-plus years old. What other entertainment industries are using twenty-plus year old business models? If the fans were driven away then who is buying the current books. Everyone says that they aren't bringing in new fans. Now you're saying they have to be because the old fans all went away. I'm a bit lost as to what you're saying about TV and Movies and box sets and repeat sales. I'm assuming you're talking about DVDs. But sales of DVDs and Blue-Rays have been dropping precipitously since at least 2013. And honestly the previous model for comics had NOTHING remotely like the sale of box sets. It does now in the sale of trade paperbacks. It used to be if you missed a comic on the newstands you were shit out of luck unless you could find a back issue. And the publisher got ZERO money from that back issue. Now they can sell a trade and it's pure dosh for them. You're making the assumption that the "long term story" is the goose that laid the golden egg. Comics sold at their peak when virtually every story was a one-and-done and there was virtually no cross-over between books. The tight continuity was change in the business model as a result of changing market forces. You're assuming that that same model will still work. But the current business model seems to disagree with you. Why aren't you calling for a return to anthology comics with multiple one-and-done stories? Because that was the most successful business model. re: hardcore fans and movies. I admit to being influenced by popular movie review sites like Collider and Beyond the Trailer. They make a case that the hardcore fans matter, and the hardcore fans care about the past (i.e. back issues). I accept that those sites being run by comic fans, might be biased. re: Amazon: I was referring to "books in general." When an author publishes a new book, Amazon still sells the back catalog. The back catalog is the bulk of Amazon's sales, not whatever books are published this month. re: back issues being essential to survival. One man's icing on the cake is another man's razor thin margin. Chuck Rozanski discussed this often, as he sold both. But as with the movies, I accept that he could be biased, as he probably focused more on back issues. re: fans who care about stories. I meant to say "long term stories". My bad. Anyone who cares about long term continuity must find the constant reboots and short memories to be frustrating. re: comics sold at their peak in "done and one" stories. True, but in the 1940s they were aimed primarily at children, and that boom was very brief: it began with WWII and declined after the war. For real long term financial success we have to look to the sixties and beyond: fifty years of sales based on crossovers and fan memories.
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 22, 2016 14:00:29 GMT -5
The renumbering thing drives me crazy! I think there are titles with something like 7 different volumes. Ridiculous. I wish they'd stop these silly money grabs.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 14:02:43 GMT -5
The renumbering thing drives me crazy! I think there are titles with something like 7 different volumes. Ridiculous. I wish they'd stop these silly money grabs. Why would a business stop doing something that is making them money?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 14:07:55 GMT -5
I think if they want to do that they should do what Dark Horse does... have each story line have a different title, and put '#202 in a series' in the Indicia... they get their multiple #1s, and there's still some way to tell what's whay. @ MRP: I don't think it worked worse before.. comic books were clearly more profitable in the past than they are now. The actual comics are essential loss leaders to test IPs for TV and movies right now. It worked through the 1990s, but that was then, the model in place did not work from 2000-2010, which is when it was mostly abandoned beginning in 2011, over the past 5-6 years comics revenue has grown over what it had been for the 10-15 years previously. Yes, in the past comics were more profitable until that model stopped working and they were declining for 10-15 years, which is when they changed the model and growth started again. The growth (in revenue not units) hasn't reached previous levels, but you don't go back to the model that was in place when the decline happened because the new model isn't growing fast enough. If anything, you find yet another new model. Going back to the old model won't recapture the glory of the past. Buying habits and the market have changed, and the decline from 2000-2010 showed them the old model wouldn't work in the new market-that's the hard evidence they have why the model you want won't work, because it stopped working. And when they look at the world that is-what possible reason would they have to implement a model of the 1960s-1990s when nothing else in the entertainment world resembles the world of that era and nothing in the entertainment world still functions like it did in that era? The market moved beyond that model years ago, and it took comics a decade to catch on and change the model, in which the losses they suffered were severe and may never be made up. Going back to that model makes no sense whatsoever. You cna argue the current model is not working as well as it should, and I won't disagree, but the answer is not going back to the model that ended up working less well in its final years because the market had moved past it. -M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 14:19:16 GMT -5
As for Amazon still selling older books by authors, yes they do, but those books are still in print by the publisher and the publisher still makes money on them. Amazon doesn't sell out of print books-seller son the market place do, but that's a different animal than Amazon itself. Book publishers don't give a whit about sales of out of print books because they don't make any money on them, if they could, those books would be in print by them. Same with comics-those back issues that can still make money are available in digital or trade form for the publishers to make money on. If it'snot going to make them money, it's not in print and can only be gotten on a secondary market, and that makes them no money, is beneath their notice and not part of their current business plan. The fact that the vast majority of trade paperbacks get 1 printing, rarely sell out of that printing and almost never go back to print tells you about the level of interest in older comics in the market. Evergreen sellers are the exception not the rule in comics, especially with Marvel & DC (and Marvel more than DC as DC does have a handful of evergreen sellers but not many of them are collections from ongoing series).
-M
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Post by dbutler69 on Aug 22, 2016 15:17:36 GMT -5
The renumbering thing drives me crazy! I think there are titles with something like 7 different volumes. Ridiculous. I wish they'd stop these silly money grabs. Why would a business stop doing something that is making them money? Does it really?? Sure, they get a boost in sales...for a few months, maybe, but that's all. Comic sales are of course nowhere near where they used to be. There a lot of reasons, but I think that the mentality of grabbing the quick buck, rather than making a quality product, is one of those reasons, and the renumbering is part of that mentality. It can't really help attract new readers when you mention The Flash and they have no idea which Flash title you're referring to.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 22, 2016 15:26:35 GMT -5
It's funny, I totally started this thread for a purely mechanical reason (actually finding what I want)... and it turned into a big thing.
I think MRP's argument is 'if they could make money they way you want it they'd do it' is a bit flawed, in they one doesn't know if they'd make money that way or not until they try it. Yes, doing a re-boot/re-numbering thing was exciting and boosted sales THE FIRST TIME, but each time you do it it's less effective... I'm at the point now with events that I wait until they're over to even think about reading them.
You say fans get what they pay for, but the companies do as well.. they throw all their marketing and energy at new #1s, so people get excited and buy them. If they got excited about some other issue, would people go along? I suspect yes, but until someone tries it we can't know.
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Post by String on Aug 22, 2016 15:40:35 GMT -5
What's also frustrating is their penchant for renumbering a series in honor of some anniversary or celebration. A title may be up to issue 25 or 30 and then next month suddenly jump to #500. Long-time readers or hard-core collectors may know the reasoning why but any new reader may be clueless.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 22, 2016 15:45:14 GMT -5
The fact that the vast majority of trade paperbacks get 1 printing, rarely sell out of that printing and almost never go back to print tells you about the level of interest in older comics in the market. Or something about the quality of modern comics. Plenty of older comics are always in print (in Essentials, epic collections, etc). So age is not a problem. But at some point the issues cease to matter. Then they cease to sell. Some series last longer than others before they stop mattering. I care about why.
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