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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 22, 2016 15:53:16 GMT -5
The thing I think is weird about older collections is they're constantly changing the format, but releasing the same stuff. I think if they wanted more 'evergreen' sales, having the entire series available would be helpful. I know lots of people get frustrated and don't even start a series if they can't get all of it.
One could call alot of those classic runs regular sellers, too, over the various formats. I mean, for Marvel you now have Essentials, Masterworks (hard and soft), and Epics for alot of things, never mind various other reprints or creator-driven Omnibuses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 15:59:05 GMT -5
I always hated renumbering and I just can't stand it. It's drives me crazy!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 18:42:16 GMT -5
Why would a business stop doing something that is making them money? Does it really?? Sure, they get a boost in sales...for a few months, maybe, but that's all. Comic sales are of course nowhere near where they used to be. There a lot of reasons, but I think that the mentality of grabbing the quick buck, rather than making a quality product, is one of those reasons, and the renumbering is part of that mentality. It can't really help attract new readers when you mention The Flash and they have no idea which Flash title you're referring to. I have no idea what the number on the cover of a comic book has to do with quality or making a quality product. If you can explain, please do.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 22, 2016 19:06:28 GMT -5
It's understandable that the constant renumbering, with very little indication of what volume the current series is, is an irritant to long-time collectors. But, yeah, Marvel and DC do these relaunches because they boost sales and have realized that they can't simply maintain and sustain a line of ongoing's any longer without short-term hype generation. The problem is that all indications seem to be that the vast majority of sales (even of something like Avengers or Batman) seem to be coming from hardcore fans, collectors and speculators. So these reboots and relaunches, which ostensibly should be geared toward bringing in new fans by easing the burden of continuity, are only really being supported by the hardcore fan-base that hate it in theory but lap it up in practice.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 19:28:48 GMT -5
It's understandable that the constant renumbering, with very little indication of what volume the current series is, is an irritant to long-time collectors. But, yeah, Marvel and DC do these relaunches because they boost sales and have realized that they can't simply maintain and sustain a line of ongoing's any longer without short-term hype generation. The problem is that all indications seem to be that the vast majority of sales (even of something like Avengers or Batman) seem to be coming from hardcore fans, collectors and speculators. So these reboots and relaunches, which ostensibly should be geared toward bringing in new fans by easing the burden of continuity, are only really being supported by the hardcore fan-base that hate it in theory but lap it up in practice. I'm really glad that you added in that last part. Because you reap what you sow. If the fans didn't want it they could vote with their wallets. They just keep on buying which says to the business-folk that this is what they want.
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Post by benday-dot on Aug 22, 2016 19:49:45 GMT -5
Titles rebooting to #1 doesn't bother me in the slightest. It can actually be good as far as refreshing a character. Oftentimes it is the debut of a new creative team that corresponds to a titles return to the starting line. If you didn't like one writer or artists take on your favourite character you now get the opportunity to to try on the new talents' take.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 22, 2016 21:33:48 GMT -5
It's understandable that the constant renumbering, with very little indication of what volume the current series is, is an irritant to long-time collectors. But, yeah, Marvel and DC do these relaunches because they boost sales and have realized that they can't simply maintain and sustain a line of ongoing's any longer without short-term hype generation. The problem is that all indications seem to be that the vast majority of sales (even of something like Avengers or Batman) seem to be coming from hardcore fans, collectors and speculators. So these reboots and relaunches, which ostensibly should be geared toward bringing in new fans by easing the burden of continuity, are only really being supported by the hardcore fan-base that hate it in theory but lap it up in practice. I'm really glad that you added in that last part. Because you reap what you sow. If the fans didn't want it they could vote with their wallets. They just keep on buying which says to the business-folk that this is what they want. Exactly. I've long since stopped focusing on the companies (or politicians in politics) because they are what they are. It's the public (fans in this case) who are the real perpetrators of mediocrity. I say this as someone who was a part of the problem for years, buying titles that I had long since stopped caring about simply out of habit.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 21:50:40 GMT -5
I'm really glad that you added in that last part. Because you reap what you sow. If the fans didn't want it they could vote with their wallets. They just keep on buying which says to the business-folk that this is what they want. Exactly. I've long since stopped focusing on the companies (or politicians in politics) because they are what they are. It's the public (fans in this case) who are the real perpetrators of mediocrity. I say this as someone who was a part of the problem for years, buying titles that I had long since stopped caring about simply out of habit. I was a part of the problem as well. I bought Batman and Detective well past the time that I no longer gave even the littlest bit of a care about either of them. And I'm very sure there were quite a bit more. I just don't care about characters any more. I want good stories preferably with good art.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 22:04:30 GMT -5
The fact that the vast majority of trade paperbacks get 1 printing, rarely sell out of that printing and almost never go back to print tells you about the level of interest in older comics in the market. Or something about the quality of modern comics. Plenty of older comics are always in print (in Essentials, epic collections, etc). So age is not a problem. But at some point the issues cease to matter. Then they cease to sell. Some series last longer than others before they stop mattering. I care about why. None of the Essential line is currently in print. They have discontinued the line. Very few of the Masterworks went back to print after their first printing sold out. Marvel has no evergreen sellers in trade paperback or hardcover format, i.e. no trades that have not gone out of print. The closest they have had to that is the Ultimate Spider-Man volumes, but even they have now gone out of print on several of the volumes. The only other contender for an evergreen book from Marvel has been Civil War, which was out of print only for a short while before the Captain America Civil War movie was announced. The have put the reprinted material in new formats at times (Omnibus, Masterworks, Essentials, Epic, etc.) but none of the actual books from those lines have stayed in print and a large portion of the customer base is repeat customers buying the same material in each new format not new people buying the material and keeping it in print. Modern reprints have larger print runs and get reprinted faster by Marvel than their classic material does. What classic material does get reprinted is done so in conjunction with which properties are featured on television or in the movies currently, and only stay in print while the that feature is prominent. When Agents of SHIELD hit the TV screens, the SHIELD material that was long out of print got a new printing, it has mostly sold out, is not getting another printing and will soon be out of print and warehouse supplies of it were already cleared out by Marvel at bargain prices to retailers. Several Dr. Strange volumes have been brought back to print since the movie was announced, when they sell out of the first printings, they will go back to being out of print, etc. There is no sustained demand for the product. And wildfire, you're telling me you don't think a large, multinational selling machine like Disney with vast corporate resources that would exploit anything under their umbrella to the utmost if it meant a penny more revenue hasn't done their due diligence with market research on how to best exploit the current print market for Marvel characters to see how to best exploit the properties they have acquired and spent billions of dollars to get? The same company that vetted the market and decided it was better to license the classic Disney characters to another publisher rather than publish them under the Marvel imprint because they would make more money from the license than they would publishing the books? This company doesn't know how well something will work without actually trying it first and throwing money at a model that was abandoned because it wasn't working to see if magically 20 years later it might tart working again even though nothing in the current market gives an indication that it would? I wouldn't want to be the suit that goes into a meeting and recommends that we stop current publishing models and guarantee a drop in revenue x amount of a percent in the short term by stopping #1s and multiple volumes on the hope that maybe if we try this at some point we might possibly see a long term growth if market conditions from 30 years ago still hold true or come back into fashion even though we have no indication form current market trends that this is likely to occur but we won't know until we try it will we? -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 22, 2016 22:09:19 GMT -5
C'mon MRP...you know that the folks on the interwebs know way more about business than those suits at Disney and Time/Warner.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 22:50:03 GMT -5
Titles rebooting to #1 doesn't bother me in the slightest. It can actually be good as far as refreshing a character. Oftentimes it is the debut of a new creative team that corresponds to a titles return to the starting line. If you didn't like one writer or artists take on your favourite character you now get the opportunity to to try on the new talents' take. You made great points here and I applaud you for that and I didn't think of that. Kudos for you!
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 23, 2016 0:57:10 GMT -5
C'mon MRP...you know that the folks on the interwebs know way more about business than those suits at Disney and Time/Warner. Given that the interwebs include all kinds of people, yes some of them do. Granted, it's a while since I ran my own business, and even longer since my marketing degree, but some things don't change. (EDIT:) I accept that modern publishers are very good at short term profit. They are especially good at squeezing money from very old properties. But that is why they are in long term decline: they are reaping what they did not sow. Back on topic, renumbering almost drove me away when I came back to comics after an 18 year gap (1986-2004). I looked for The Fantastic Four and found there were half a dozen comics with that a title, and none of them bore much resemblance to the comic I left. (Characters had got younger, for example.) It did not help that the main title had recently been renumbered and then reverted back. Or that it had been rebooted twice since I left. The prominent "part X of 6" numbering just added to the chaos.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 3:00:09 GMT -5
I find it astonishing that hardcore comics fans can keep track of the most extreme minutiae when it comes to continuity, cameos, cross-overs, shared universes, creative teams, art fixes by Romita's Raiders, origins, retcons, first appearances, why Peter Parker's socks changed color from panel 1 to 3 in a given issue, what the sequencing of certain classes of Starships are supposed to be in Star Trek: TOS, etc. but get completely flustered when a series changes volumes and issue numbering. Like suddenly their ability to keep track of comic data and organize their comics in boxes suddenly disappears. There must be krytonite in them thar' issue numbers.
-M
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 23, 2016 3:27:13 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 4:35:05 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically. So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M
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