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Post by tingramretro on Aug 23, 2016 4:40:53 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically. So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M Well, since it's a fairly large portion of their customer base...
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 23, 2016 4:43:06 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically. With me, I went to the library and on a whim I thought I might sample something. Didn't think I had to cram research beforehand and if that's whats required I got other things to do. And this from a guy who would agonize over filing his comic collection with conundrums like should it be J for Jimmy Olsen or by the indicia name S for Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen. Or should it be P for Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-Man or it's later name S for Spectacular Spider-Man. Should I keep the series together or separate by it's two titles. And how do you file 1/2 issues, 0 issues, issues with decimal points, infinity issues. My shrink told me to quit comics and I'm feeling much better now
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 23, 2016 4:44:51 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically. So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M There's evidence to prove the comic companies caused these disorders. Dr. Wertham may have been on to something
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 23, 2016 4:52:14 GMT -5
So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M There's evidence to prove the comic companies caused these disorders. Dr. Wertham may have been on to something Not really. The same behaviour patterns apply to other hobbyists such as stamp collectors, toy collectors and train spotters, as well as science fiction enthusiasts. And companies do exploit them.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 23, 2016 5:01:48 GMT -5
There's evidence to prove the comic companies caused these disorders. Dr. Wertham may have been on to something Not really. The same behaviour patterns apply to other hobbyists such as stamp collectors, toy collectors and train spotters, as well as science fiction enthusiasts. And companies do exploit them. I'll have to remind myself to always include smiley faces when I'm being facetious. My humor obviously is too subtle. Or should I say humour
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 5:34:11 GMT -5
I always hated renumbering and I just can't stand it. It's drives me crazy! After thinking about it (funny quoting from my own post) that benday-dot convinced me to not to worry about it and I decided that renumbering doesn't bothers me one bit. As long there is a reason for it - I say go for it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 6:45:59 GMT -5
So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M Well, since it's a fairly large portion of their customer base... Not as large as you think. If (And it's a big if) you take the regular posters here as a representative sample of hardcore comics customers, you don't even have a consensus that numbering is an issue. If you then add in the portion of the customer base that hasn't been buying comics since the Bronze age who don't have an attachment to the numbering, that portion becomes significantly smaller. The ony people I ever hear complaining about it are people who are invested in back issues of comics. That's not the majority of comic purchasers these days. In a retailer demographics survey I read about a year back, of the 5000 or so Diamond accounts in North America, less than half sold back issues other than current issue overstock. So back issues aren't even a part of the business model of half the comic retailers in North America. I think people overestimate how important back issues are to the current comics industry, the interest level of people reading current comics in going and getting back issues, and the importance of numbering to the typical end customer (rather than retailer who places the orders who are the actual customers of the comics companies, not the end customers buying the books to read or collect). More and more the back issue market has moved from brick and mortar comic shops to dealers at conventions, online comics retailers, and online auctions sites, and brick and mortar retail establishments who deal in vintage pop culture and collectibles but not current comics. Sure a fair number of comic shops carry back issues, but even those that do, it is not often the core of their business plan. So marketing strategies for current comics built on collections of back issues or the preferences of those collectors are not reflective of the actual demographics of the current end customers for comics. Market research has shown that the current 18-34 demographic (the key/most desirable demographic in any entertainment industry) are less inclined to amass large quantities of stuff in any form. Fewer are buying homes, most tend to be more mobile and want less stuff to tie them down when the do move, etc. The trend is growing in strength, not lessening, so any long term growth plans for people in the entertainment industry has to take that into account. You don't aim long term growth strategies at older demographics. It's a losing proposition. Short term revenue strategies aimed at that group, sure, but not long term growth plans because older demographics shrink (unless someone find a cure for old age/death), and many in the older demographics change lifestyles and shed stuff once they do retire as well. A large source for key back issues coming in the market is older collectors divesting themselves of stuff (like our pal Ish did). So where's the growth potential there? Your growth potential is in the 18-354 demographic and the generation after that, so any long term growth plans for any entertainment industry has to account for their preferences, not those of the 35+ demographic. And as for people on the interwebs, they are by far a vast minority of the total customer base, the majority are content to buy the product and not post/bitch/complain about it online, never visit a comic forum or facebook group about comics, etc. So complaints/desires expressed about an industry (and comics in particular) are most often from a very vocal dissatisfied minority who in no way, shape or form represent the majority opinion of customers who contentedly buy the product voting with their wallet and speaking louder than any internet complaint ever could. Complaints form forum posters and such is really just so much white noise when compared to what the dollars actually flowing into the companies say in the short or long term. -M
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Post by MDG on Aug 23, 2016 8:47:14 GMT -5
Some loose thoughts:
When comic shops first opened in the 60s/70s, they definitely made most of the their money on back issues (as well as small press, imports, etc.)--remember, the "direct market" was a response to the rise of comic shops and the fact that they wouldn't return unsold books because they sold back issues.
Digital editions of back issues will probably keep much of the catalog--at least most popular titles and characters--in print "forever."
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 23, 2016 9:03:47 GMT -5
I think it has more to do with OCD (which we all have as collectors and former collectors I think) than it has to do with them not being able to follow what's new and in which order it should be read. With all the database sites, it's easy to figure out how everything fits chronologically. So companies should plan their business strategies based on the disorders of a portion of their customer base then? -M That was hardly my point. I was just commenting on what I think the major issue is with a portion of the fanbase.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 23, 2016 16:34:51 GMT -5
I find it astonishing that hardcore comics fans can keep track of the most extreme minutiae when it comes to continuity, cameos, cross-overs, shared universes, creative teams, art fixes by Romita's Raiders, origins, retcons, first appearances, why Peter Parker's socks changed color from panel 1 to 3 in a given issue, what the sequencing of certain classes of Starships are supposed to be in Star Trek: TOS, etc. but get completely flustered when a series changes volumes and issue numbering. Like suddenly their ability to keep track of comic data and organize their comics in boxes suddenly disappears. There must be krytonite in them thar' issue numbers. -M It's not that I can't keep track, it's that they're hard to locate properly on sites like E-bay. It's fine for 2nd tier characters, but major series (like Avengers, JLA, Iron Man, etc) it's kinda difficult. @ MRP: I disagree with you completely on the importance of back issues. I know many people (family and friends) that LOVE Superheroes, the TV shows, the movies, the action figures, and what to know WHAT happens in the comics, but they won't actually read them. Why? 'I don't know where to start'... 'I don't know which series to read', or 'I don't know which ones are important' are what I hear. I think that's 1/2 the reason stuff like the Vertigo Titles and Walking Dead can be 'evergreen' titles.. there's a clear, accessible beginning, middle, and end. That's not the case with Marvel and DC superheroes.. where either the history is muddled, or not all the material is easily available.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 16:47:17 GMT -5
I find it astonishing that hardcore comics fans can keep track of the most extreme minutiae when it comes to continuity, cameos, cross-overs, shared universes, creative teams, art fixes by Romita's Raiders, origins, retcons, first appearances, why Peter Parker's socks changed color from panel 1 to 3 in a given issue, what the sequencing of certain classes of Starships are supposed to be in Star Trek: TOS, etc. but get completely flustered when a series changes volumes and issue numbering. Like suddenly their ability to keep track of comic data and organize their comics in boxes suddenly disappears. There must be krytonite in them thar' issue numbers. -M It's not that I can't keep track, it's that they're hard to locate properly on sites like E-bay. It's fine for 2nd tier characters, but major series (like Avengers, JLA, Iron Man, etc) it's kinda difficult. @ MRP: I disagree with you completely on the importance of back issues. I know many people (family and friends) that LOVE Superheroes, the TV shows, the movies, the action figures, and what to know WHAT happens in the comics, but they won't actually read them. Why? 'I don't know where to start'... 'I don't know which series to read', or 'I don't know which ones are important' are what I hear. I think that's 1/2 the reason stuff like the Vertigo Titles and Walking Dead can be 'evergreen' titles.. there's a clear, accessible beginning, middle, and end. That's not the case with Marvel and DC superheroes.. where either the history is muddled, or not all the material is easily available. All the more reason to eliminate the need for back issues and make their product accessible to the wider audience. Marvel and DC are not in the back issue business. They never have been. Maybe instead of trying to make it easier for someone else in the secondary market to sell back issues they don't profit on, Marvel and DC should focus on producing stories with clear beginnings, middles and ends which is what modern audiences want. Their movies and tv shows do it and are vastly popular and profitable. Their comics do not and barely break even and are relegated to a niche market. There's a lesson in there, but it's not make it easier for people to buy back issues. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 23, 2016 16:48:29 GMT -5
I find it astonishing that hardcore comics fans can keep track of the most extreme minutiae when it comes to continuity, cameos, cross-overs, shared universes, creative teams, art fixes by Romita's Raiders, origins, retcons, first appearances, why Peter Parker's socks changed color from panel 1 to 3 in a given issue, what the sequencing of certain classes of Starships are supposed to be in Star Trek: TOS, etc. but get completely flustered when a series changes volumes and issue numbering. Like suddenly their ability to keep track of comic data and organize their comics in boxes suddenly disappears. There must be krytonite in them thar' issue numbers. -M It's not that I can't keep track, it's that they're hard to locate properly on sites like E-bay. It's fine for 2nd tier characters, but major series (like Avengers, JLA, Iron Man, etc) it's kinda difficult. @ MRP: I disagree with you completely on the importance of back issues. I know many people (family and friends) that LOVE Superheroes, the TV shows, the movies, the action figures, and what to know WHAT happens in the comics, but they won't actually read them. Why? 'I don't know where to start'... 'I don't know which series to read', or 'I don't know which ones are important' are what I hear. I think that's 1/2 the reason stuff like the Vertigo Titles and Walking Dead can be 'evergreen' titles.. there's a clear, accessible beginning, middle, and end. That's not the case with Marvel and DC superheroes.. where either the history is muddled, or not all the material is easily available. I don't see where that is really a "back issues" issue. It's a function of 50-80 years of publishing a character under multiple creators. There is no way that you can keep the entirety of 50-80 years of stories in print. It is neither economically or logistically possible. And nobody but rabid comic book completests are going to buy 75 volumes Superman in Action Comics. Sandman, happened. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. Ditto Watchmen. Ditto the few books that are unlikely to go out of print. I would contend that the current system, particularly the way Marvel does their books are much easier for a new reader to climb on board because they have discrete starting and stopping points, as opposed to a continuum of 50 years of potential places to go.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 23, 2016 17:12:46 GMT -5
It's not that I can't keep track, it's that they're hard to locate properly on sites like E-bay. It's fine for 2nd tier characters, but major series (like Avengers, JLA, Iron Man, etc) it's kinda difficult. @ MRP: I disagree with you completely on the importance of back issues. I know many people (family and friends) that LOVE Superheroes, the TV shows, the movies, the action figures, and what to know WHAT happens in the comics, but they won't actually read them. Why? 'I don't know where to start'... 'I don't know which series to read', or 'I don't know which ones are important' are what I hear. I think that's 1/2 the reason stuff like the Vertigo Titles and Walking Dead can be 'evergreen' titles.. there's a clear, accessible beginning, middle, and end. That's not the case with Marvel and DC superheroes.. where either the history is muddled, or not all the material is easily available. All the more reason to eliminate the need for back issues and make their product accessible to the wider audience. Marvel and DC are not in the back issue business. They never have been. Maybe instead of trying to make it easier for someone else in the secondary market to sell back issues they don't profit on, Marvel and DC should focus on producing stories with clear beginnings, middles and ends which is what modern audiences want. Their movies and tv shows do it and are vastly popular and profitable. Their comics do not and barely break even and are relegated to a niche market. There's a lesson in there, but it's not make it easier for people to buy back issues. -M My point is they should be. Image is making piles of money on Walking Dead 'back issues' in the form of trades and omnibuses.. reaching tons of people that don't usually buy comics. No reason that wouldn't work for other properties if the price and format were correct. It's all about availability. No one is going to by things if they're not sure they going to finish. You seem to be saying you think the lesson is to not have any history... I think they should embrace it. What they do it is this weird half measure that doesn't work for anyone.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 23, 2016 17:16:46 GMT -5
I don't see where that is really a "back issues" issue. It's a function of 50-80 years of publishing a character under multiple creators. There is no way that you can keep the entirety of 50-80 years of stories in print. It is neither economically or logistically possible. And nobody but rabid comic book completests are going to buy 75 volumes Superman in Action Comics. Sandman, happened. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. Ditto Watchmen. Ditto the few books that are unlikely to go out of print. I would contend that the current system, particularly the way Marvel does their books are much easier for a new reader to climb on board because they have discrete starting and stopping points, as opposed to a continuum of 50 years of potential places to go. The size of the catalogue is a problem, but not as big as you think... people buy almost 200 issues of Walking Dead without blinking. Yes, Superman is 10x that, at least. But you don't have to go back to the beginning, or reprint every story, just make a logical 'history'' that can BE a beginning, middle and end. Marvel's problem is while they number things like they are separate stories, they most definitely are not.. the last Ms. Marvel #1 continued directly from #18 of the previous series, and was NOT a particularly good jumping on point, it was just a attempt to get a sales bump. Many of Marvel's recent re-starts are like that. More importantly, people can see by reading said characters have history they don't know about. Maybe the answer is companion trades with classic stories that make up the background of the current stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 18:37:55 GMT -5
All the more reason to eliminate the need for back issues and make their product accessible to the wider audience. Marvel and DC are not in the back issue business. They never have been. Maybe instead of trying to make it easier for someone else in the secondary market to sell back issues they don't profit on, Marvel and DC should focus on producing stories with clear beginnings, middles and ends which is what modern audiences want. Their movies and tv shows do it and are vastly popular and profitable. Their comics do not and barely break even and are relegated to a niche market. There's a lesson in there, but it's not make it easier for people to buy back issues. -M But the TV shows are serial in nature both episode to episode & season to season. IMO they are more like monthly comics. Movies are more like a Graphic Novel. And aren't DC & Marvel profiting by collecting their back issues into trades & selling them again (maybe several printings)?
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