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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 15:19:40 GMT -5
As historic & enjoyable as Superman vs Spider-Man was...Batman vs Hulk really was the better book. Fun story. Great art.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Sept 20, 2016 19:45:45 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 21, 2016 16:12:17 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned. i am of the reverse opinion. I think if they took early 60's DC and Marvel when their universes weren't so cluttered and complicated then a really fun series could be made with their inhabiting the same universe. imagine if Justice League of America and Avengers were the big teams in town and the FF were the government go to team and Spidey still the "outlaw hero" being blasted by J.J.J and the X-Men were the merest hint of mutants to come. Batman hanging with Cap and Daredevil. Superman and Wonder Woman a rivalry with Thor over who is more powerful. Hulk rampaging through Gotham and Metropolis, Namor and Aquaman quarreling in the oceans over supremacy. Galactus having to put up with Darkseid. Can you imagine Doom having to tolerate the Joker? Doom putting Luthor in his place? Loki working his wiles on Superman or Wonder Woman? How would Superman do against the Asgardian Destroyer or Mangog? To have an ongoing series or couple of books dedicated to such a smaller fantastic world would have been truly special. In today's overwrought and overcrowded world of hero's and villains it just isn't feasible or much fun. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 21, 2016 19:33:24 GMT -5
I think they were fun in part for the simply fact that they were from a simpler, less corporate, time when Marvel and DC could play nice and do something fun for the readers every now and then. I do like the idea that Superman vs Spider-Man created another alternate universe where the Marvel and DC universes coexist. This concept has always been popular with Marvel RPG fans.
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 21, 2016 22:43:51 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned. i am of the reverse opinion. I think if they took early 60's DC and Marvel when their universes weren't so cluttered and complicated then a really fun series could be made with their inhabiting the same universe. imagine if Justice League of America and Avengers were the big teams in town and the FF were the government go to team and Spidey still the "outlaw hero" being blasted by J.J.J and the X-Men were the merest hint of mutants to come. Batman hanging with Cap and Daredevil. Superman and Wonder Woman a rivalry with Thor over who is more powerful. Hulk rampaging through Gotham and Metropolis, Namor and Aquaman quarreling in the oceans over supremacy. Galactus having to put up with Darkseid. Can you imagine Doom having to tolerate the Joker? Doom putting Luthor in his place? Loki working his wiles on Superman or Wonder Woman? How would Superman do against the Asgardian Destroyer or Mangog? To have an ongoing series or couple of books dedicated to such a smaller fantastic world would have been truly special. In today's overwrought and overcrowded world of hero's and villains it just isn't feasible or much fun. As amazing as it may seem, this was much closer to reality than most people realize. Before Marvel bankrupted and was on its knees in the mid 90's, DC offered to buy out the entire Marvel Universe except for the X-Men / mutants. I've heard this from numerous accounts. Marvel was up for it. They didn't have any problem with it at all. At that time, if they just retained those titles, they would've been the third largest publisher. It obviously didn't happen, so what happened ? Marvel wanted to retain one other franchise that DC wanted and wasn't willing to do the deal without. Spider-Man DC said no, we get Spidey or no deal. Marvel said, you can have everything else : the FF, Hulk, Cap, Thor, Avengers, Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Sub-Mariner, Invaders, Daredevil, everyone, except the X-books and Spidey. That's what broke the deal. Can you imagine Marvel being Spidey and the X-Men ? Pretty sure Marvel was just going to explain anyone with super powers as a mutant, keeping Stan's boy Spidey, and building out from there. I wish I had the in-house ad, and I've seen it, but I remember reading from that period a subscription ad Marvel ran around the time of them acquiring Heroes World, and it had the titles broken down by franchises / groups, and one was MUTANTS and it had Elektra in there. Elektra ? Did I miss something ? More than fanboy dreaming, but an almost reality that nearly happened : except for Spidey and the X-Men, the Marvel U would be under the DC label. That would've been Paul Levitz at the time, pre-Didio, Lee & Harras. |
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Post by coinilius on Sept 21, 2016 23:26:57 GMT -5
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 22, 2016 0:18:52 GMT -5
Funny how roles can reverse like that in a scant decade. It also goes to show how the people running Marvel in the 90's were some of the most inept fools to ever disgrace the business world.
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 23, 2016 19:19:59 GMT -5
I'd heard something like that, but not that exact rumor, though I don't doubt it.
Hard to believe Marvel passed because of the characters !
That statement is staggering.
Shooter was still there then.
Superman, the granddaddy of all heroes and one of the most popular characters of all time.
Batman ! Even Marvel fans that don't like DC dig Batman.
Wonder Woman - far and away the strongest most recognizable superheroine icon there is.
New Teen Titans - the only other title to really give the X-Men a run for their money.
Legion of Super-Heroes - Marvel wasn't using the Guardians back then.
Justice League - One of the most iconic groups in comic history
Green Lantern - see Batman. Marvel fans dig GL and didn't have a major character similar to GL
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 23, 2016 21:45:56 GMT -5
Marvel getting the publishing rights to those DC characters would have changed so many things that the mind boggles. The first thing that came to mind was that Crisis probably wouldn't have happened; though the more I think about it, it's very possible that Shooter would have wanted to simplify the universe of this scaled down line of comics.
At least going by what Shooter related in the plan, Swamp Thing would have been canceled, which means no Alan Moore, which in turn means no Watchmen or Vertigo. From a creative standpoint, when you look at how comics are written today, this would have have been the most significant change. The only bigger "What If?" I can think of in terms of creators is if Jack Kirby caught on at DC and never returned to Timely/Atlas/Marvel in the late 50's.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 23, 2016 21:49:03 GMT -5
Hard to believe Marvel passed because of the characters ! Years back I read Shooter's blog in detail and he stated that he, as well as all of his editors, loved the DC characters and knew that it was poor management over at DC that was the problem. Basically, the creatives knew the score. In today's climate, many of the guys in charge at Marvel and DC grew up as fans and or creators, so their awareness of the cultural significance of their IP's is far greater than the out-of-touch stuffed suits who ran the show in the late 70's and early 80's. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Sept 23, 2016 22:14:04 GMT -5
Hard to believe Marvel passed because of the characters ! Years back I read Shooter's blog in detail and he stated that he, as well as all of his editors, loved the DC characters and knew that it was poor management over at DC that was the problem. Basically, the creatives knew the score. In today's climate, many of the guys in charge at Marvel and DC grew up as fans and or creators, so their awareness of the cultural significance of their IP's is far greater than the out-of-touch stuffed suits who ran the show in the late 70's and early 80's. The ultimate folks in charge are the execs at Disney and Time-Warner. The stuffed suits never went away. The cultural significance is meaningless as well. All that counts is the financial profitability of the properties within various media formats and satisfying the stockholders |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 24, 2016 0:14:02 GMT -5
Years back I read Shooter's blog in detail and he stated that he, as well as all of his editors, loved the DC characters and knew that it was poor management over at DC that was the problem. Basically, the creatives knew the score. In today's climate, many of the guys in charge at Marvel and DC grew up as fans and or creators, so their awareness of the cultural significance of their IP's is far greater than the out-of-touch stuffed suits who ran the show in the late 70's and early 80's. The ultimate folks in charge are the execs at Disney and Time-Warner. The stuffed suits never went away. The cultural significance is meaningless as well. All that counts is the financial profitability of the properties within various media formats and satisfying the stockholders I realize that, but my point is that some of those suits actually understand the potential of the properties now besides "silly characters in tights that kids seem to like." Joe Quesada, Jim Lee and Geoff Johns are perfect examples. There weren't go-betweens like that back in the day. The idea that the powers that be at Marvel or DC wouldn't be aware of how valuable Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are is unthinkable today. Once you get past the level of Shooter and Levitz, the higher ups seemed to have been clueless as to why a book sold or didn't sell. I suppose it had a lot to do with the corporate mentality of willfully denying the contribution of the creative types. Marvel simply had the better creators in the late 70's and early 80's. Levitz eventually righted the ship in the mid-80's, but it was a process. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 24, 2016 0:40:39 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think they mix well together, and not only because of my dislike of many of the popular DC characters. JLAvengers really highlighted how ill-matched the characters and their universes are - and kudos to Kurt Busiek for acknowledging that problem and trying to address it in his story, although his choice of method for doing so wasn't to my personal liking. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,211
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Post by Confessor on Sept 24, 2016 7:33:34 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think they mix well together, and not only because of my dislike of many of the popular DC characters. JLAvengers really highlighted how ill-matched the characters and their universes are - and kudos to Kurt Busiek for acknowledging that problem and trying to address it in his story, although his choice of method for doing so wasn't to my personal liking. Yeah...this. Exactly this. That's the problem I have with it too. Along with the eye-rolling attempts by whoever's writing to be so afraid of upsetting one fanbase or the other that the script inevitably has to feature some kind of excruciating, "he's the strongest opponent I've ever faced" dialogue from both sides, in a desperate attempt to placate both DC and Marvel fans. Even dear old Kurt Busiek was guilty of this in his JLAvengers cross over. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 24, 2016 11:39:03 GMT -5
I really don't like Marvel/DC crossovers. Never the twain shall meet, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think they mix well together, and not only because of my dislike of many of the popular DC characters. JLAvengers really highlighted h ow ill-matched the characters and their universes are - and kudos to Kurt Busiek for acknowledging that problem and trying to address it in his story, although his choice of method for doing so wasn't to my personal liking.Please go on about that JLA/Avengers crossover. I remember buying, it, but only read it once. Would love to hear more about this, berkley. My limited recall of it was that it just seemed overly crowded, with both characters and plot. Side note: It's funny, but as good as George Perez was, his art often did have that overly detailed, decorative look, as if he had to use every square inch of every page to tell the story. For all the bitching about Mike Sekowsky's art, he was able to smoothly incorporate lots of characters into his layouts and still tell the story clearly. |
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