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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 11:47:51 GMT -5
Last issue. Where would I get my fix of western themed romance (gasp) ? |
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Post by String on Mar 14, 2017 13:18:52 GMT -5
Fantastic four #286, featuring the return of Jean Grey, certainly broke my comics collector's heart. That issue made it abundantly clear that all the emotional attachment I had invested in these make-believe characters had been utterly wasted, and that they were not characters... They were products, meant to be used and misused any which way, with no respect for readers or past creators, as long as there was a buck to be made. My willing suspension of disbelief died right there, and I stopped reading comics for more than a year. I can see some of your point, this was definitely a huge marketing ploy spurred by Shooter, all the more ironic considering that he was the one that was adamant to Claremont and Bryne that she must suffer the consequences of her actions as DP in the first place. But I don't buy this completely. When you are dealing with fictional universes featuring magic, future science, super-powered people in costumes and where the Universe Itself is a entity, then yes, at some point, death will become cheap and reversible. One can only hope that the eventual rebirth and comeback is handled well and intelligently and in the case of FF #286 with Jean, I think her return was handled rather well (based on a idea by Busiek no less). As a kid then, it certainly excited me and made me more interested in seeing her return in X-Factor. (Of course, in hindsight, the damage done to Cyclop's story and reputation is hard to ignore but that's another debate). It's just a unfortunate side-effect of the industry where sales can and does overshadow story potential and outcomes. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 14:26:47 GMT -5
Crisis on Infinite Earths #7: Supergirl dies. I think I was maybe 12 when that issue came out and I had no idea that she would really be killed off (only to come back over and over again), but at that time the story packed quite a punch. She died very heroically and from then on as I read Crisis, I was really worried for my favorite heroes. The scene of Superman carrying her body, wrapped in the cape through space, broke my heart.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 14, 2017 15:19:09 GMT -5
(...) When you are dealing with fictional universes featuring magic, future science, super-powered people in costumes and where the Universe Itself is a entity, then yes, at some point, death will become cheap and reversible. It certainly turned out that way, but back then there was a tacit agreement between creators and readers: there was comic-book death, and there was death-death. The thumb rule was "if you don't see the body, they ain't dead". When a character had been meant to die for real, they were usually left to rest in peace... with a few very rare exceptions, like Xavier. Jean's return was like a betrayal of that trust. Well, "betrayal" is too strong a word for it, since these are after all only comic-book characters... but "Interest-killing" is definitely suited. There are things you just don't do if you want people to maintain interest in your book! If Jean can die in the most dramatic, "yes-this-time-it's-for-real" way and return anyway, why should I care the next time she's in peril? If Peter Parker's marriage can be undone by a Diabolus-ex-machina, why should I care about his future love life, which can be undone on a whim? I never cared as much for comic-book characters after that. I can't even be bothered to check issues in which my favourite ones die nowadays, because they do so on a regular basis. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 15:24:50 GMT -5
Fantastic four #286, featuring the return of Jean Grey, certainly broke my comics collector's heart. That issue made it abundantly clear that all the emotional attachment I had invested in these make-believe characters had been utterly wasted, and that they were not characters... They were products, meant to be used and misused any which way, with no respect for readers or past creators, as long as there was a buck to be made. My willing suspension of disbelief died right there, and I stopped reading comics for more than a year. I can see some of your point, this was definitely a huge marketing ploy spurred by Shooter, all the more ironic considering that he was the one that was adamant to Claremont and Bryne that she must suffer the consequences of her actions as DP in the first place. But I don't buy this completely. When you are dealing with fictional universes featuring magic, future science, super-powered people in costumes and where the Universe Itself is a entity, then yes, at some point, death will become cheap and reversible. One can only hope that the eventual rebirth and comeback is handled well and intelligently and in the case of FF #286 with Jean, I think her return was handled rather well (based on a idea by Busiek no less). As a kid then, it certainly excited me and made me more interested in seeing her return in X-Factor. (Of course, in hindsight, the damage done to Cyclop's story and reputation is hard to ignore but that's another debate). It's just a unfortunate side-effect of the industry where sales can and does overshadow story potential and outcomes. It was based on a Busiek idea, but that's not the whole story-Kurt has clarified it many times. They were in a meeting ans someone (I believe it was Shooter) said if you were to bring Jean Grey back, how would you do it, and people were spitballing their ideas, and Kurt gave his with the caveat that they shouldn't do it, and if they did, it would be the worst mistake Marvel ever made. It wasn't an idea he threw out there wanting them to use, it was something done in the confines of the meeting that Shooter then chose to run with despite everyone telling him it was a bad idea to do this. It wasn't Kurt's idea to bring her back, he just supplie da how in a brainstorming session most hoped would bear any fruit but Shooter had other plans. -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 14, 2017 18:30:12 GMT -5
It's just a shame that Shooter and other writers that bring back dead characters can't just create a new person to replace the dead one. is Jean THAT important to the MU ?
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Post by james on Mar 14, 2017 20:27:55 GMT -5
The whole story Death of Captain Marvel broke my heart. I remember tearing up.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 14, 2017 20:52:28 GMT -5
It's just a shame that Shooter and other writers that bring back dead characters can't just create a new person to replace the dead one. is Jean THAT important to the MU ? She really wasn't, and in my opinion had become a greater character in death than she had been for most of her literary existence. She could have been replaced by Polaris and Havok (both affiliated with the old X-Men), by Madelyne Pryor (who briefly had powers in the X-Men/Alpha flight crossover) or even by her own "daughter" Rachel. And that's without even trying to create a new character, as per your very sensible suggestion. In any case, the whole X-factor idea was far from my favourite. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 14, 2017 20:52:39 GMT -5
Last issue. Where would I get my fix of western themed romance (gasp) ? "Cowgirl Romances" sounds like it should be a lesbian romance title: cowgirls together, ridin' the range ... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 21:11:42 GMT -5
Last issue. Where would I get my fix of western themed romance (gasp) ? "Cowgirl Romances" sounds like it should be a lesbian romance title: cowgirls together, ridin' the range ... Ha! I came across this & couldn't believe that there was actually a market at one time (early 50's) for this. |
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Post by DubipR on Mar 15, 2017 9:34:21 GMT -5
There's a few that make me cry as the theme is very close to my heart and thoughts. There's two moments for me in comics that will crush me every time. First... the page leading up to the Death of Eulalio "Speedy" Ortiz  Gets to me every time Second... The Spectre #45  This page, particularly the corner panel will make me cry (actually getting tearyeyed thinking about it). But the gruff and tumble 1940s Jim Corrigan asking the Archangel Michael that question. As coming out as pansexual, the first time I read that issue as it deals with gaybashing, makes me cry and think that some people, hell a lot of people think old man Corrigan. And that people can't change their beliefs.. it gut punches me every time. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 15, 2017 9:46:26 GMT -5
Fantastic four #286, featuring the return of Jean Grey, certainly broke my comics collector's heart. That issue made it abundantly clear that all the emotional attachment I had invested in these make-believe characters had been utterly wasted, and that they were not characters... They were products, meant to be used and misused any which way, with no respect for readers or past creators, as long as there was a buck to be made. My willing suspension of disbelief died right there, and I stopped reading comics for more than a year. I can see some of your point, this was definitely a huge marketing ploy spurred by Shooter, all the more ironic considering that he was the one that was adamant to Claremont and Bryne that she must suffer the consequences of her actions as DP in the first place. But I don't buy this completely. When you are dealing with fictional universes featuring magic, future science, super-powered people in costumes and where the Universe Itself is a entity, then yes, at some point, death will become cheap and reversible. One can only hope that the eventual rebirth and comeback is handled well and intelligently and in the case of FF #286 with Jean, I think her return was handled rather well (based on a idea by Busiek no less). As a kid then, it certainly excited me and made me more interested in seeing her return in X-Factor. (Of course, in hindsight, the damage done to Cyclop's story and reputation is hard to ignore but that's another debate). It's just a unfortunate side-effect of the industry where sales can and does overshadow story potential and outcomes. I thought it was pretty well handled, too. Unfortunately, the whole X-Factor thing took a wrong turn (as far as I was concerned, anyway) as soon as Bob Layton left with issue #5, and I don't think any of the characters have really recovered since... |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 15, 2017 9:48:24 GMT -5
Crisis on Infinite Earths #7: Supergirl dies. I think I was maybe 12 when that issue came out and I had no idea that she would really be killed off (only to come back over and over again), but at that time the story packed quite a punch. She died very heroically and from then on as I read Crisis, I was really worried for my favorite heroes. The scene of Superman carrying her body, wrapped in the cape through space, broke my heart. Never really liked Supergirl, or even Barry Allen, but I was pretty broken up by the loss of Earth Two and the deaths of Robin and Huntress. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 11:32:36 GMT -5
.......I was pretty broken up by the loss of Earth Two and the deaths of Robin and Huntress. Same here. I wanted DC to pare down the # of Earths & keep E2 & ES separate. |
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Post by lobsterjohnson on Mar 15, 2017 11:32:46 GMT -5
Fantastic four #286, featuring the return of Jean Grey, certainly broke my comics collector's heart. That issue made it abundantly clear that all the emotional attachment I had invested in these make-believe characters had been utterly wasted, and that they were not characters... They were products, meant to be used and misused any which way, with no respect for readers or past creators, as long as there was a buck to be made. My willing suspension of disbelief died right there, and I stopped reading comics for more than a year. But I don't buy this completely. When you are dealing with fictional universes featuring magic, future science, super-powered people in costumes and where the Universe Itself is a entity, then yes, at some point, death will become cheap and reversible. I would say that it also depends on what the fictional universe was created for. The Hellboy universe has almost all of those things (except the Universe Itself being an entity as far as I know), but I can't remember any deaths being reversed there. But Hellboy is a story with a beginning and an ending, not a universe designed to be rebooted and continue for 75+ years. The feeling that beloved characters could suddenly die adds a lot more suspense to stories for me (which is one of the reasons I like Hellboy more than Marvel or DC stuff). I'm pretty worried about what's going to happen to the good guys in the next few issues of Baltimore, but I'm pretty sure Batman will survive his next fight with the Joker. |
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