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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 13, 2020 21:03:26 GMT -5
There was a prequel to the Lensman stories, Triplanetary (published after the Galactic Patrol and a few of the others), that gives a backhistory of the Eddorans and the Arisians, two rival races, who manipulate the evolution of species, eventually leading to the Lensman (on the Arisian side, with hero Kim Kinnison destined to father the greatest of the Lensmen) and the Boskone pirates, servants of the Eddorans. They inspired the militaristic elements of the Jedi and super powers, and the Rangers, in B5, with their emblem. They did inspire elements of the Green Lantern Silver Age revamp and Steve Englehart paid tribute to this by introducing Arisia and Eddore.
The Nightwatch is an allegory of the Gestapo, and, to some extent, the SA, in Nazi Germany. The swearing in of Pres Clark, after the assassination of Pres Santiago, was shot to copy the swearing in of Lyndon Johnson, after the death of Pres Kennedy.
The look of the Centauri evolved from the pilot through the series; so Lilandra and the Shi'ar are rather debatable.
Bester is named for author Alfred Bester, whose novel The Demolished Man, features a psychic police force and a murder, in a world where such things no longer happen because of the police. That inspired the Psi-Corps.
The founder of the Mars Colony is John Carter.
The Centauri Emperor had no name in the series and was eventually played by actor Turhan Bey and the Emperor, from then on, was known as Emperor Turhan.
At the end of the second season, when Sheridan leaps out of a tram car, to escape a bomb and is saved by Kosh, seated near him, as a tram passenger, is Mira Furlan, without alien make-up, dressed as a stylish human passenger.
Actor Wayne Alexander played The Inquisitor (aka Jack the Ripper), Lorien, the Narn D'dan, a Drazi, and the Drakh who manipulates Londo.
The Psi-Corps salute is a nod to The Prisoner. They tried to develop an episode as an homage to the Prisoner, to feature Patrick McGoohan; but, it never came off. The closest thing was the episode "The Corps is Mother", where everything is told from Bester's POV.
The season 4 end episode, with flashes of the future, featured a priest who was actually a ranger, helping to rebuild Earth and recovering past history. The premise was a nod to Walter M Miller's Canticle for Leibowitz.
Sinclair quotes Tennyson often and King Arthur is referenced throughout.
The teddy bear that Sheridan dumps out of an airlock, after shutting down a B5 gift shop that had caused complaints, had the initials JS. The bear was actually a gift from Peter David's wife to JMS, but he hates cute things and told David he would get him for it. In David and Bill Mumy's space tv series, Space Cases, the heroes discover the bear floating in space and recover it, asking who would jettison a stuffed toy, with the answer being the Strac.
Emperor Cartagia was a nod to Caligula.
G'Kar, in a Season 1 episode, when the Narn take over a Centauri agricultural colony, makes a statement about breeding room that echoes Hitler's "lebensraum." Sinclair calls him out with just that.
The Drazi ships were an homage to the Liberator, from Blake's 7, which was a big inspiration to JMS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 20:09:22 GMT -5
The series has been remastered and is now streaming on HBO MaxI may have to give it a try...again.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 4, 2021 23:32:29 GMT -5
The series has been remastered and is now streaming on HBO MaxI may have to give it a try...again. Hang in there for the first season, until Mr Morden turns up, then hang on again until the season finale. Then, be prepared for a bit of treading water at the beginning of season 2, as Sheridan is introduced. Then, it rages on through Season 4, with a couple of bumps in the road. Season 5 is another that requires patience, for about the first third to a half. I still don't believe that JMS got June Lockhart to due a guest appearance and didn't have Lenier in any scenes with her character. They could have at least had Mumy play a security guard, out of make-up, to be an escort. Still, I always imagined her talking to Lenier and saying that he reminded her of her son.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 14:27:20 GMT -5
Bumping this thread, a late contribution but I finally watched this series for the first time last November. I have no idea why I didn't watch it back in the day, it should have been right up my alley. And on a whim I took a chance and bought the entire series on DVD and watched it straight through.
The short version...a good portion I liked, particularly the first 3 seasons. Yes, even the first season with Sinclair. While things hadn't gone epic yet, it was just a fun setting and I liked the characters. Londo always stood out to me as the most interesting, particularly how he evolved. I made the assumption early on he would just continue to be somewhat comical. Very interesting to me how his role evolved and how he wasn't quite the fool at times, and he even made you feel like there was a "good side" that sometimes came out, but he would then make a harsh and ruthless pivot and completely throw you off, as well as remind you how bad he could be (I can't tell you how many times I liked him then hated him).
Season 2 obviously really launched the action and seriousness of everything to come, and cemented the classic cast with Boxleitner as Sheridan. I feel like a lot of these characters were at their best early on. Though I liked Ivanova a lot throughout much of the series, Claudia Christian really just made the role, her delivery of lines was always great. I thought she stayed more consistently interesting throughout her time on the show through the 4th season than some of the other characters.
Garibaldi was a favorite for me early on, but later I wasn't as crazy with where they took the character. Similarly with Delenn, she was so charming, but I kind of wish they hadn't done the metamorphosis, she looked really cool in season 1 and I got a little tired of the whole "I'm neither fully Minbari nor human" plot elements.
The "return" of Sheridan in season 4 and the storyline that ensued just didn't grab me as much. I started to enjoy the show a lot less. The loss of Ivanova in season 5 and the replacement with Lochley I didn't really care for.
Honestly though, overall this show was much more what I had hoped DS9 would have been. Coming off of Star Trek the Next Generation with high hopes, DS9 never hooked me. And it should have! Avery Brooks had stolen the show as Hawk on Spencer for Hire, he's such a great actor. I didn't care for how they wrote Sisko. Not to mention the great Rene Auberjonois among others, so much talent on that show but it tended to leave me a bit flat.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 17, 2021 19:38:31 GMT -5
DS9 started out being episodic and fairly standard Trek plots, though in a static location. Most of the characters didn't grab me, at the start, nor the early stories. I missed the pilot of B5, until the last 5 minutes, when first broadcast; but, a commercial for the debut Season 1 episode looked great and I was there; but, I almost quit, early on, until the debut of Mr Morder and the Shadows. I wavered again, later (TKO and the young telepath episodes, but stayed for the end of it, which had me thoroughly hooked.
I liked Sinclair. I'm a formal naval officer and Sinclair was very much a ship's captain type of leader, which made him perfect for B5 command, though his personality didn't really fit a fighter pilot, based on my experiences. They tended to be more aggressive, with more Type A personalities. When Sheridan was introduced, he felt more like a fighter jock, yet he was the ship driver. I always felt they got the two backgrounds reversed.
Delenn's transformation was originally intended to be more startling. the pilot presented the Minbari as androgynous and Delenn would transform into an obvious female form; but, the androgynous look was one of the things that didn't work well, in the pilot, that led to a retooling, for the series. I thought it worked better, in series, since they refined the look of the make-up, and an androgynous race didn't make biological sense, unless they were asexual.
Season 4 has some pacing issues; but, I really like that one, overall, with just a couple of hiccups. Season 5 got hamstrung from the start. At first, it looked like they were not going to be renewed; so, they shot the final episode, to slot in. Then, they got the last minute renewal and they had truncated the Earth war (by about 2 episodes) to accommodate the final episode. So, they pulled it and did that future look season finale. Then, Season 5 didn't have the Earth war to lead off the season and had to kind of reset the pieces, before they could go into the planned Season 5 arc, with the telepaths and the Drahk. I do think the telepath war hit the floor like a turd, though the Drahk part was good; the whole lead up to the series finale, in fact.
JMS set out to upend expectations, by making you believe characters were one thing, then subverting that by making them more complex, having them make choices and then show the consequences of those choices. That was a rare thing for episodic tv. Londo is a sad clown because his world and empire have lost status and are in decline. this leads him to make his ill-conceived bargain with Morden, which sets him on a dark path. He attempts to pull back from the abyss at several points; but, his selfish goals always undo him, until the end. meanwhile, G'Kar is a fiery revolutionary, from an oppressed people, acting somewhat like abused children who have grown up to mistrust and hate. It takes an actual threat to his people to stop his power plays and face the reality that he needs to build alliances to save his people. then, he has a spiritual awakening that shows him his world is a pawn in a greater conflict and to save it, he must work towards the greater goal, with the others. Both characters were villain and sympathetic hero, depending on where they were in the arc or even the particular events of an episode. G'Kar got to be a bit of a hero when he saves Catherine Sakai, in Season 1, after several plots against Sinclair, Londo and the station, in general.
To me, the big difference between B5 and Trek was that B5 was conceived as a novel for television, with beginning, middle and end, while Trek was an anthology vehicle, to tell different stories, in an allegorical fashion. I also liked the fact that B5 demonstrated that advanced technology and exploration and expansion in space didn't solve the problems of the human condition; they just complicated them. prejudices came into space, poverty still existed, hunger for power and fear are still potent forces. However, it also demonstrated that people advance, socially; but it is a slow process. B5 was about striving for a better tomorrow, while trek was often about the contrast of the utopian Federation and the metaphorical civilizations encountered.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2021 23:46:52 GMT -5
I hear you about Garabaldi... his arc had some weird moments. it was all made better at the end though, IMO.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jul 18, 2021 7:05:24 GMT -5
I've only ever watched the first two seasons of Babylon 5, but I think it's far superior to DS9 - for many of the reasons codystarbuck enumerated above. I liked that it had an overarching narrative running through the whole thing, and that even the need to replace the Sheridan character after the first season (due to Michael O'Hare's personal/health issues) didn't really muck anything up too seriously. The whole concept of big power politics playing out at the station was really well done.
DS9, on the other hand, really seemed to flail around for a good three seasons before they finally decided the only way to make a space station show interesting was to have the Federation go to war. I watched it all the way through, and there's a lot I like about it overall, but I'm often puzzled when I see people praising it as the best iteration of Star Trek. I found it pretty good overall, but seriously flawed, and - not counting Enterprise, which I pretty much hated - it's the Trek show that I least like to rewatch.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 18, 2021 10:17:50 GMT -5
I love original Trek; but have never really warmed to later series, and I tried them out with each new one. I probably saw Next Gen the most, but can take it or leave it. Some of it felt very pompous in the way it presented its allegories and I never really warmed to the characters. It was slick and there were good episodes; but they didn't grab me the way the original had. It probably didn't help that it debuted while I was in college and then in the military and was pretty busy, only catching it now and again. DS9 really didn't do anything for me, from the start and Voyager even less so. Enterprise was an intriguing idea, but between work schedule and some flat episodes, I just never really watched much of it. Haven't seen the later series and the movies I don't even consider Trek, as it just feels like they ramped up the action and dumbed down the plots.
B5 wasn't perfect, but it had long stretches of really great episodes.
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 22, 2021 1:13:13 GMT -5
Guess I'm going against the grain here. DS9 is my favourite Trek series. It's not a perfect series — I have low tolerance for Klingons/Ferengi — but by embracing ongoing story and character arcs, I feel it did a better job realizing its potential than its predecessors had.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 26, 2021 10:27:45 GMT -5
Guess I'm going against the grain here. DS9 is my favourite Trek series. It's not a perfect series — I have low tolerance for Klingons/Ferengi — but by embracing ongoing story and character arcs, I feel it did a better job realizing its potential than its predecessors had. I loved DS9 too. I agree about the character arcs, and would add that no other Trek series did as much to make its alien species more complex. The Bajorans and Cardassians, for example, were quite simple in TNG; the former were an occupied people who sometimes resorted to terrorism to gain their freedom, and the latter were brutal oppressors. The dichotomy was clear, and we were meant to root for the Bajorans while (sometimes) deploring some of their tactics. DS9 showed both of their societies to be much more than that, with neither coming across as completely likeable or totally despicable. Same for the Ferengi, who after they failed to become major opponents in TNG were turned into something of a joke, a caricature of greedy capitalism. DS9 showed how their system could actually work, and that there was more to them than met the eye. What I also enjoy is that writers didn't just go "no, no, we can't keep treating Ferengi like jokes, let's make them braver and nobler"; they just showed how courage and smarts don't always manifest themselves the same way across different cultures. Concepts aside, what makes these series work for me is how much come to care for its characters. I love seeing Odo and Quark arguing, much as I loved the G'Kar-Londo sparring in B5.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 29, 2021 18:41:19 GMT -5
See, here's the thing about DS9; JMS pitched Babylon 5 to Paramount, who passed on it. It took him a while to sell it to Warner Bros for the pilot and series. By the time the pilot was ready, Paramount was launching DS9, about a space station, in neutral territory, after a bloody war, with a veteran commander, a security chief, a doctor and some belligerent aliens. Now, B5 was not a terribly original concept, as it borrowed from Casablanca, the Lensman Saga, WW2 history, The Demolished Man, the foundation Trilogy and other sci-fi. DS9 was covering similar ground. However, the timing of its release was always suspicious and JMS' pitch meeting took place before DS( was developed. Because of the similarities with other things and the various influences, no lawsuits were ever lodged (lest others come to claim their piece of the pie); but, it was a sticking point in the early B5 vs Trek fandom wars. One thing that is generally noted is that DS9 didn't adopt a story arc format until B5 was established successfully and DS9's ratings weren't at the levels they hoped.
Personally, I always felt that Paramount was looking to develop another Trek series, but weren't really coming together with a new concept, until JMS' pitch suggested they move away from a spaceship and g to a space station. Other than the setting, the two series were vastly different, though it is ironic that the ratings prompted them to give DS9 a ship and send them off the station more. Granted, B5 spent a lot of time in space, away from the ship, especially after they introduced the White Star. So, both sides were borrowing from each other, while also mining what had come before, in sci-fi and cinema.
I do think JMS novel (as in structure, not "unique") approach led to far better writing in the episodes, as they had a place to go, rather than an end of the episode reset. Even with story arcs, you don't have the same level of story evolution, as it progresses. DS9 did have the advantage, though, of a better distribution system and studio marketing. The early Warner Television Distribution was haphazard and left to its own devices, as was the series, itself. JMS had to go make book and comic book deals on his own, rather than Warner taking advantage of its other divisions. JMS described Warner as a series of fiefdoms, often competing against each other, which ios part of why DC's properties were so diverse in approach. They were optioned by independent production companies, with Warner maintaining the film distribution, while Marvel had optioned whatever they could, to whomever they could, until launching the MCU with the characters that weren't under option elsewhere. Dc's approach seemed sounder, until Marvel demonstrated they could do a shared universe of film franchise, in one super-franchise, leading to the scrambling from warner, with the DC properties. Paramount also gave DS9 way bigger budgets than B5 had, though I think that was to B5's advantage, as they thought outside traditional tv sci-fi, in terms of sets, costuming and pioneering the use of digital filmmaking techniques. B5 used a lot of theatrical costuming people, who were used to working on a tight budget and were very creative. The costumes always seemed more lush and had wider color tones (though they definitely favored muted tones) and fabrics. They did a lot of modular set building, which allowed them greater flexibility to repurpose existing sets and not have to build new, while using the computers to flesh out the environments. Paramount lagged a big on the digital revolution, with Next Gen and DS9, but took greater advantage of it, in Voyager.
When it comes to Trek, I find I prefer the work of the real architects of the original, Gene Coon and people like DC Fontana and David Gerrold, for which Gene Rodenberry took credit. Next Gen didn't really work for me, until Roddenberry was less of an influence, in later seasons, but still had too great a tendency to depend on techno-babble to save the day and a lot of political correctness that felt limiting. DS9 didn't seem to be as hamstrung by that, but I just never really warmed to it, especially since B5 was really capturing my imagination and appreciation. I liked its dirtier and more realistic approach to man's progress, in 300 years, compared to the Trek world. I found B5 more relatable, especially after my experiences in the military, during the first Gulf War period. It felt truer, to my experiences, and wove in more culture, like commerce, entertainment, religion, and even sports. The Trek tv shows always seemed to avoid that, except in an allegorical fashion. The movies did more in that realm, likely due to better budgets, comparatively.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2021 16:50:40 GMT -5
Looks like JMS is working with the CW on a reboot of Babylon 5... story-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 27, 2021 19:57:49 GMT -5
Looks like JMS is working with the CW on a reboot of Babylon 5... story-M CW? Ugh. I'll try not to pre-judge, and I get from a marketing standpoint why they'd do a reboot and not just a new story, but Ugh.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 27, 2021 21:16:53 GMT -5
I get it. Everything is remade or rebooted for a new generation. YOUNGSTERs these days won't watch "old" shows so there is money to be made. Fine, at least CW is involving Straczynski and maybe it will remain HIS vision and not be awful.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2021 23:15:49 GMT -5
Claudia Christian and JMS have both posted about why it's a remake, and NOT a continuation. . . *but* much of the surviving cast are involved in some way.
since not a continuation, I suspect new characters. . . but guess we will find out.
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