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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jul 16, 2017 3:50:24 GMT -5
Ive still only read this era sporadically, I come in around 170, collect to 360 or so, accumulate about 30 or 40 back issues(not bad in the 80s with no LCS), and along the way it becomes MY book, well MY Marvel book cos Legion was MY book too  Like Kree/Skrull War ok, dislike Avengers-Defenders War, like Celestial Madonna and the Kang story (cos that brings Two Gun to our time) but Im out till the appearance of Count Nefaria in 18 months or so(which I eventually got some 5 years after I bought 170) though that is about the start of what I consider to be almost THE best run of Avengers books. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jul 16, 2017 6:10:41 GMT -5
My earlist exposure to the Avengers was probably the Englehart run, starting around the beginning of the Avengers/Defenders war , so that era, and in particular the Celestial Madonna saga, has always been my favourite period of Avengers history (and the Swordsman still remains tied with the Vision as my favourite Avenger). I love the whole series up until about #300, but I think for me, the real golden era was probably #114-277. Other favourite storylines from that period would include the fall of Yellowjacket, the Nefaria three parter, the Doom/Attuma conflict and the Korvac saga.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 16, 2017 7:53:52 GMT -5
I was thinking about how people have favorite eras and runs and I read the Avengers from the mid 60's on, But I did leave for periods of time.
I Read from
# 88- 127 pretty steadily
# 128-153 I didn't read comics much
# 154-to the end of the run, I pretty much bought the issues no matter how bad the stories got.
The early issues I read in reprint form and acquired the originals after I fell in love with them around the Kree Skrull war. After the wedding of Crystal and Pietro In # 127 , I read the book sporadically seeing the Celestial Madonna story but thinking it wasn't great. The best Englehart story that I read first run was the Avengers/ Defenders war, and I really liked when the Beast joined in # 137 with the George Tuska artwork, but those issues I bought in the back issue market. I consider Roy Thomas to be the best Avengers writer of all time followed by Stan Lee, and Jim Shooter.
Kurt Busiek did a fine job and is probably the best Avengers scribe of all the writers in the modern era.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 16, 2017 9:34:51 GMT -5
My earlist exposure to the Avengers was probably the Englehart run, starting around the beginning of the Avengers/Defenders war , so that era, and in particular the Celestial Madonna saga, has always been my favourite period of Avengers history (and the Swordsman still remains tied with the Vision as my favourite Avenger). I love the whole series up until about #300, but I think for me, the real golden era was probably #114-277. Other favourite storylines from that period would include the fall of Yellowjacket, the Nefaria three parter, the Doom/Attuma conflict and the Korvac saga. It's good to hear that I have some great storylines to look forward to. I was beginning to think I'd seen it all with the Kree/Skrull War, Avengers/Defenders War, Kang War I and II, and the Celestial Madonna. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 16, 2017 10:27:54 GMT -5
The book picks up again with 141, the issue you mentioned you were on. That issue is also George perez's first though it's a while before he really blossoms. #141-144 and #147-148 form the serpent crown saga, unfortunately interrupted by a two part fill in.
The Dr doom / attuma story is in 154 and 155 after englehart leaves the book - it also crosses over into super villain team up 9, so you may need that if you don't already have it.
With 158, Jim shooter takes over and the book really takes off again and stays really good up into the 190s other than some more really ill timed fill in issues.
Then there's another short slump until shooter returns for his second run with 211, and for me, the book stays somewhere between good and excellent through at least 285.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 17, 2017 8:55:33 GMT -5
The book picks up again with 141, the issue you mentioned you were on. That issue is also George perez's first though it's a while before he really blossoms. #141-144 and #147-148 form the serpent crown saga, unfortunately interrupted by a two part fill in. I thought the Serpent Crown Saga happened in the pages of Sub-Mariner a few years earlier? Thanks much for this, Scott! |
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 17, 2017 9:21:47 GMT -5
Seems like just about every story with the Serpent Crown is called the Serpent Crown Saga at one point or another. This sotry... if you try to google it, as I did, it comes up variously as The Serpent Crown Saga, Saga of the Serpent Crown, the Serpent Crown Affair, or Avengers: The Serpent Crown. So... there's a serpent crown involved is about all I can say for certain.  |
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Post by berkley on Jul 17, 2017 20:42:51 GMT -5
Currently struggling with the Post-Celestial Madonna stories. G.S. Avengers #4 felt rushed and anti-climactic, but it was still full of imagination. Everything since has felt...blah. I have zero interest in seeing Hank Pym return, nor in watching Iron Man and Thor get on each other's nerves, I feel like the Vision/Scarlet Witch romance has been tapped of its dramatic potential at this point, and while Moon Dragon may yet make a compelling addition to the team, The Beast does not (and I say this as a loyal X-Men fan), yet, as of issue #141, he's the one getting all of the attention while Moon Dragon has been sorely underutilized. Really, the team just needs more fresh blood than this. Mantis and Swordsman provided that for a while, and Vision did so all on his own before that, but Beast is not the character to assume that mantle and dramatic responsibility next. We need a bigger roster change-up than this, but I think that's still a year away. I agree that Moondragon was under-used, though that might be due to the problems inherent in a team-book and also to the fact that Englehart's Avengers run was terminated before he had a chance to go into her character more. It's particularly disappointing because this is really the only version of that character that I like, so I wish there had been more. Even brief and sparse as it is, it's enough to have made Moondragon one of my favourite MU characters, though really more as a hint of the potential that was there. For me, the classic Avengers ends with Englehart's departure, though that's largely from hindsight - at the time, I was very much into the first Shooter run, but now I think it's mostly the Perez art that makes it worthwhile. I'm not sure about after that, as I stopped following the book around the end of the Korvac saga. I'll read the Michelnie run eventually, or at least the issues that Perez drew - though I must say, even Perez's stuff around that time doesn't look quite as good to me as his first 30 issues or so (#140s - 170s). Maybe it's the inking - I really loved his combination with Pablo Marcos. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 18, 2017 14:31:37 GMT -5
Currently struggling with the Post-Celestial Madonna stories. G.S. Avengers #4 felt rushed and anti-climactic, but it was still full of imagination. Everything since has felt...blah. I have zero interest in seeing Hank Pym return, nor in watching Iron Man and Thor get on each other's nerves, I feel like the Vision/Scarlet Witch romance has been tapped of its dramatic potential at this point, and while Moon Dragon may yet make a compelling addition to the team, The Beast does not (and I say this as a loyal X-Men fan), yet, as of issue #141, he's the one getting all of the attention while Moon Dragon has been sorely underutilized. Really, the team just needs more fresh blood than this. Mantis and Swordsman provided that for a while, and Vision did so all on his own before that, but Beast is not the character to assume that mantle and dramatic responsibility next. We need a bigger roster change-up than this, but I think that's still a year away. I agree that Moondragon was under-used, though that might be due to the problems inherent in a team-book and also to the fact that Englehart's Avengers run was terminated before he had a chance to go into her character more. It's particularly disappointing because this is really the only version of that character that I like, so I wish there had been more. Even brief and sparse as it is, it's enough to have made Moondragon one of my favourite MU characters, though really more as a hint of the potential that was there. For me, the classic Avengers ends with Englehart's departure, though that's largely from hindsight - at the time, I was very much into the first Shooter run, but now I think it's mostly the Perez art that makes it worthwhile. I'm not sure about after that, as I stopped following the book around the end of the Korvac saga. I'll read the Michelnie run eventually, or at least the issues that Perez drew - though I must say, even Perez's stuff around that time doesn't look quite as good to me as his first 30 issues or so (#140s - 170s). Maybe it's the inking - I really loved his combination with Pablo Marcos. I love the Michelenie issues, though yes, it helps that Byrne or Perez pencilled most of his issues. Marcos is great with Perez, but I thought Dan Green did an excellent job on Perez's work, too. So did some others, for an issue here and there on his Avengers run. I didn't like the one issue inked by John Tartage (#151) however. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 18, 2017 17:10:03 GMT -5
For me, the classic Avengers ends with Englehart's departure, though that's largely from hindsight - at the time, I was very much into the first Shooter run, but now I think it's mostly the Perez art that makes it worthwhile. I'm not sure about after that, as I stopped following the book around the end of the Korvac saga. I'll read the Michelnie run eventually, or at least the issues that Perez drew - though I must say, even Perez's stuff around that time doesn't look quite as good to me as his first 30 issues or so (#140s - 170s). Maybe it's the inking - I really loved his combination with Pablo Marcos. It's interesting to me to hear you say that, because Marcos is probably my least favorite inker of the era and his inks over Perez (and Sal Buscema, John Byrne, et al) keep me from enjoying that run as fully as I do his later issues under Dan Green and others. Also, I think the title got noticeably better after the Korvac saga wrapped up and generally stayed strong, at least storywise, through the end of Roger Stern's run (#285). Of course there are more than a few crap issues along the way but overall I prefer this era to the Englehart stuff. Cei-U! I summon the two cents my opinion is worth! |
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Post by berkley on Jul 18, 2017 20:45:17 GMT -5
For me, the classic Avengers ends with Englehart's departure, though that's largely from hindsight - at the time, I was very much into the first Shooter run, but now I think it's mostly the Perez art that makes it worthwhile. I'm not sure about after that, as I stopped following the book around the end of the Korvac saga. I'll read the Michelnie run eventually, or at least the issues that Perez drew - though I must say, even Perez's stuff around that time doesn't look quite as good to me as his first 30 issues or so (#140s - 170s). Maybe it's the inking - I really loved his combination with Pablo Marcos. It's interesting to me to hear you say that, because Marcos is probably my least favorite inker of the era and his inks over Perez (and Sal Buscema, John Byrne, et al) keep me from enjoying that run as fully as I do his later issues under Dan Green and others. Also, I think the title got noticeably better after the Korvac saga wrapped up and generally stayed strong, at least storywise, through the end of Roger Stern's run (#285). Of course there are more than a few crap issues along the way but overall I prefer this era to the Englehart stuff. Cei-U! I summon the two cents my opinion is worth! I just had a look at my issues and at an online Avengers cover gallery to see if I could jar my memory as to why I quit around that time. From the cover gallery, I think there happened to be some distribution irregularities right afterwards - otherwise I'm sure I would have bought #178 as it was written by Steve Gerber and pretty much anything with his name on it was an automatic purchase for me at the time. After that, I think I tried one or two issues in the early #180s but can't recall which ones now since I've since picked up a few back issues from that period. I don't think Byrne's art looked nearly as good on the Avengers as it had on the X-Men or Iron Fist - again, possibly due to the inking. The Klaus Janson issues for example look very sketchy. And I didn't much like the Dan Green inks over Byrne, or over Perez when he came back. So I think it probably came down to the fact that I had grown a little tired of the Korvac Saga as it stretched out, especially once Perez stopped doing the art. And then I missed a few issues because of distribution and the next few I saw the artwork didn't grab me. I can't say much about the writing except that it wasn't enough to overcome what seemed to me mediocre artwork. I might look for some of the issues Gene Colan did in the early #200s, though from what I've seen he wasn't that suited to a superhero team book around that time in his career, and once again,the Dan Green inks don't seem a great fit to me - not bad but not great. I dislike everything I've heard about Shooter's 2nd run and the few issues I've read since have confirmed that distaste so I'll probably continue to avoid that period. Looking through the Roger Stern run on that Avengers gallery, I'll probably try some of those issues eventually, though I have to say, the art credits aren't too encouraging until Buscema and Palmer come on board. What would you say are the highlights of the Stern era? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 18, 2017 22:05:46 GMT -5
The second Shooter run was one of my favorite issues of the entire Avengers series. I voted the Fall of Hank Pym as one of the best sagas a few years ago on this forum. The only weak link was the artwork, at the beginning . I'm a sucker for a lineup with the founders.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 18, 2017 22:26:39 GMT -5
There's some iffy art during the first half of the #200's, but I also find both Shooter runs to be top notch. The first has a ton of great stories, very plot driven, while the second is very character driven. I can understand why people might not like the second run, but as someone who started reading after the fact and was introduced to Hank Pym during his rehabilitation in WCA, I loved it.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 19, 2017 1:30:27 GMT -5
Shooter as a writer without 'power', I like.
My problem with 'The Avengers in the Bronze Age' mainly stems from Shooter-ism limiting the art, as compared to Silver Age Avengers, to 'cr@ppity-arse storyboards. As opposed to delicious comic book-art. Like the wonderful initial Vision and Ultron stories.
Ultron sucked under Shooter as a head honcho.
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 19, 2017 2:31:23 GMT -5
It's interesting to me to hear you say that, because Marcos is probably my least favorite inker of the era and his inks over Perez (and Sal Buscema, John Byrne, et al) keep me from enjoying that run as fully as I do his later issues under Dan Green and others. Also, I think the title got noticeably better after the Korvac saga wrapped up and generally stayed strong, at least storywise, through the end of Roger Stern's run (#285). Of course there are more than a few crap issues along the way but overall I prefer this era to the Englehart stuff. Cei-U! I summon the two cents my opinion is worth! I just had a look at my issues and at an online Avengers cover gallery to see if I could jar my memory as to why I quit around that time. From the cover gallery, I think there happened to be some distribution irregularities right afterwards - otherwise I'm sure I would have bought #178 as it was written by Steve Gerber and pretty much anything with his name on it was an automatic purchase for me at the time. After that, I think I tried one or two issues in the early #180s but can't recall which ones now since I've since picked up a few back issues from that period. I don't think Byrne's art looked nearly as good on the Avengers as it had on the X-Men or Iron Fist - again, possibly due to the inking. The Klaus Janson issues for example look very sketchy. And I didn't much like the Dan Green inks over Byrne, or over Perez when he came back. So I think it probably came down to the fact that I had grown a little tired of the Korvac Saga as it stretched out, especially once Perez stopped doing the art. And then I missed a few issues because of distribution and the next few I saw the artwork didn't grab me. I can't say much about the writing except that it wasn't enough to overcome what seemed to me mediocre artwork. I might look for some of the issues Gene Colan did in the early #200s, though from what I've seen he wasn't that suited to a superhero team book around that time in his career, and once again,the Dan Green inks don't seem a great fit to me - not bad but not great. I dislike everything I've heard about Shooter's 2nd run and the few issues I've read since have confirmed that distaste so I'll probably continue to avoid that period. Looking through the Roger Stern run on that Avengers gallery, I'll probably try some of those issues eventually, though I have to say, the art credits aren't too encouraging until Buscema and Palmer come on board. What would you say are the highlights of the Stern era? To my mind it's the Buscema/Palmer stuff. The entirety of it. 255-285. A lot of the stories run into each other and overlap, so they can be hard to segment. But the saga that introduces Nebula, the Under Siege story where the Masters of Evil attack the mansion, and the story with the Olympian gods all stand out to me. |
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