shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 1, 2017 8:29:31 GMT -5
THE AVENGERS In The Bronze Age Judging by The CCF Top 100 Comic Book Sagas (which I hope to bring back next month), the Bronze Age Avengers is one of the best loved runs in this community (or at least was back in 2014). I'm currently reading the run for the first time, having grabbed what Silver Age stories I could, and then getting a firm start with The Kree Skrull War and up; I'm currently reading The Celestial Madonna story arc. I don't have the time nor energy for yet another review thread, but I really do want to talk about these, so I thought I'd open up space for a more informal discussion of this run -- what you loved, what you didn't, fond memories, and the like. What I love:Crazy, limitless imagination, especially from Starlin. You just never know where a storyline will take you. Some of this stuff is ridiculous and non-sensical, but it's not hard to maintain a suspension of disbelief, and it never feels like something that's been done before. Character arcs -- I love watching characters develop and change over time. Vision, Scarlet Witch, Swordsman -- it often feels like melodrama, but it keeps you interested and reading all the same. What I don't:Whereas Claremont's X-Men felt like a family, this feels like an office staff. These are the people you go to work with that you don't necessarily like, respect, or even trust, and sometimes they learn embarrassing personal stuff about you. There just isn't a core to the Avengers, from my perspective. It's any interchangeable group of people who showed up that particular day. While I generally enjoy Roy Thomas' excessive attention to continuity, some of the stuff he forces really turns me off. Why did The Whizzer have to be Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's father, The High Evolutionary being their care-taker? Couldn't we just leave it as two mutant orphans growing up in Western Europe? And I'm really not feeling the Kang/Rama-Tut thing going on in The Celestial Madonna right now. Fond memories:All the multi-part story arcs, nearly all of which have felt earned. My detesting Mantis and feeling like she was a Mary Sue until Starlin blew that all apart and, now that I'm not supposed to like her as much, I kind of love her. As of now, this isn't one of the greatest runs I've ever read in my life, but I enjoy it consistently and can see myself getting more attached to it as I continue onwards. It's certainly very good, possibly more. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 1, 2017 10:57:36 GMT -5
I guess I like the Bronze Age Avengers more than you do. Anyway, I missed out on the CCF Top 100 Comic Book Sagas last time, so hopefully I can participate this time!
My fondest memories are the wonderful art (by various artists, especially Byrne & Perez) and some very memorable, epic feeling story arcs, such as Bride of Ultron, Korvac Saga, Celestial Madonna, the Serpent Crown, the fall of Hank Pym, and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's quest to find their origin, taking them to Wundagorr. Also some fun or side thins things such as and the fun of the big deal they made over the roster changes.. The camaraderie between Beast and Wonder Man, and the fun of the big deal they made over the roster changes, and the Wasp maturing and becoming a leader.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 1, 2017 13:42:16 GMT -5
What years do you consider to be the Bronze age ?
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 1, 2017 15:56:48 GMT -5
I feel like the essence of superhero comics is found in Avengers. The "era" I like to point to is issue 41-300, from John Buscema's first issue to his last. The best Avengers stories are illustrated by Buscema, with George Perez taking the silver.
It essentially doesn't matter who was writing it. The quality stayed consistent from Thomas to Englehart to Conway to Shooter to Michelinie to Stern to Simonson.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 1, 2017 17:23:10 GMT -5
I feel like the essence of superhero comics is found in Avengers. The "era" I like to point to is issue 41-300, from John Buscema's first issue to his last. The best Avengers stories are illustrated by Buscema, with George Perez taking the silver. It essentially doesn't matter who was writing it. The quality stayed consistent from Thomas to Englehart to Conway to Shooter to Michelinie to Stern to Simonson. Yes. But I would extend it to 1-300. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 18:20:16 GMT -5
I'm looking forward hearing what you have to say about the Avengers in the Bronze Age. This is one area that I'm very weak on.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 1, 2017 20:25:23 GMT -5
I don't know how we were supposed to react to Mantis initially. When she showedd up with the Swordsman, it was hostility at first sight... I couldn't stand her aloofness, her infernal superiority, and her apparent flirtiness (which I couldn't believe was genuine).
I liked her a lot better in Englehart's Silver Surfer, although she didn't stay around all that long.
Then she was a founding member of the modern Guardians of the galaxy, and became one of my favourite Marvel characters. She was still acting superior, but this time it was fully deserved: she acted like an adult amongst children. I still regret that DnA's Guardians got cancelled too soon, because her development would have been very interesting to follow.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jul 2, 2017 3:25:11 GMT -5
For me, the Avengers in the entire sweep of what we call the Bronze Age really epitomizes the best of that era: tons of great, often epic stories, mainly great art, lots of interesting characters filing through and interacting - so that it's altogether a wonderfully entertaining and memorable run of superhero comics. I even like the characters that are often rated as the most annoying or most hated, like Mantis and Moondragon, because they worked quite well in the stories that featured them most prominently.
As to the question of what years are encompassed by the Bronze Age - that's more complicated for me. First, I think the Bronze Age started earlier at Marvel than at DC (i.e. late '60s), and I think the Bronze Age in Avengers specifically started once Roy Thomas became the main writer, and the art was mainly by John Buscema, with stints by Colan and later kid brother Sal (of course, that could be due to the fact that I first read many of those stories as reprints in Marvel Triple Action/Super Action in the late '70s). For me that first great era of Avengers ended with the final two issues drawn by Perez in that period (the Ultron story #s 201-202), which slightly (but only slightly) cleansed the palate of the bad taste left by #200. (I consider the return to greatness during the Roger Stern run post-Bronze - those roughly 2 dozen issues between #202 and Stern's arrival are just too much of a break in quality for me and mark a change in eras).
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 2, 2017 6:53:23 GMT -5
enjoying Mantis, for me being an artist, was dependent on which artist depicted her. because as a 'deep/metaphysical' character, subtle nuances of facial expression/body language was required (imo). this was the case re my enjoyment of the 'A Team' from 1972-whenever we agree the Bronze Age concluded.
my fave bouts were drawn by Perez.. how he humanized the Whizzer, and the pomposity he gave Hyperion.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jul 2, 2017 9:06:00 GMT -5
What years do you consider to be the Bronze age ? While arguing where the Bronze Age begins for comics in general would prompt an endless discussion, I feel that, for the Avengers, it's clearly the Kree Skrull War. The title seemed to grow up overnight with that story, and while it reverted to type a bit immediately after the arc concluded, the long term shape of an Avengers story had been changed irrevocably. I feel like the essence of superhero comics is found in Avengers. The "era" I like to point to is issue 41-300, from John Buscema's first issue to his last. The best Avengers stories are illustrated by Buscema, with George Perez taking the silver. It essentially doesn't matter who was writing it. The quality stayed consistent from Thomas to Englehart to Conway to Shooter to Michelinie to Stern to Simonson. I've always paid more attention to writing first and art second, so I have to disagree. With few exceptions, the first 80+ issues of The Avengers kind of bore me. I see good qualities in those stories and, yes, I do enjoy the artwork, but the characters and storylines rarely enthrall me. The Kree/Skrull War is awesome, but even after that, it isn't until Englehart comes along that I find myself truly reflecting on, and looking forward to reading more of, the series. His character arcs and multi-part storylines are nearly always on point, even when he's handed artists who can't keep up with your Buscemas and Adamses. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 2, 2017 9:12:51 GMT -5
I've always paid more attention to writing first and art second, so I have to disagree. With few exceptions, the first 80+ issues of The Avengers kind of bore me. I see good qualities in those stories and, yes, I do enjoy the artwork, but the characters and storylines rarely enthrall me. The Kree/Skrull War is awesome, but even after that, it isn't until Starlin comes along that I find myself truly reflecting on, and looking forward to reading more of, the series. His character arcs and multi-part storylines are nearly always on point, even when he's handed artists who can't keep up with your Buscemas and Adamses. I presume you mean Englehart, not Starlin. Aside from Annual #7, Starlin never wrote The Avengers. Cei-U! I summon the faux pas! |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jul 2, 2017 9:14:43 GMT -5
I've always paid more attention to writing first and art second, so I have to disagree. With few exceptions, the first 80+ issues of The Avengers kind of bore me. I see good qualities in those stories and, yes, I do enjoy the artwork, but the characters and storylines rarely enthrall me. The Kree/Skrull War is awesome, but even after that, it isn't until Starlin comes along that I find myself truly reflecting on, and looking forward to reading more of, the series. His character arcs and multi-part storylines are nearly always on point, even when he's handed artists who can't keep up with your Buscemas and Adamses. I presume you mean Englehart, not Starlin. Aside from Annual #7, Starlin never wrote The Avengers. Cei-U! I summon the faux pas! "I've always paid more attention to writing..." Duh. Sorry. This is the hazard of replying immediately after having woken up. I'm currently in a facebook discussion about Starlin's work on Batman and crossed my streams, so to speak.  |
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 2, 2017 14:30:46 GMT -5
I've always paid more attention to writing first and art second, so I have to disagree. With few exceptions, the first 80+ issues of The Avengers kind of bore me. I see good qualities in those stories and, yes, I do enjoy the artwork, but the characters and storylines rarely enthrall me. The Kree/Skrull War is awesome, but even after that, it isn't until Englehart comes along that I find myself truly reflecting on, and looking forward to reading more of, the series. His character arcs and multi-part storylines are nearly always on point, even when he's handed artists who can't keep up with your Buscemas and Adamses. And for most series, I'm with you. A writing guy. Avengers is the exception. The artists carry it. Thomas isn't the best Avengers writer. But Thomas with Buscema is. And I think Englehart has plenty of good stuff, notably the Celestial Madonna Saga, I certainly disagree that there wasn't a ton of great stuff before it. Mostly by Buscema. "Behold The Vision" is one of my all-time favorite comic stories. But there's also the arc with the gods illustrated by Barry Windsor-Smith. |
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 2, 2017 16:53:32 GMT -5
 About a year ago I filled in the missing issues between issues 100-200.  I haven't gotten around to reading them yet, but this era to me is the epitome of the Avengers.  It was still good in the 200's with Stern - Buscema - Palmer being the best.  After that I jumped off.  |
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Post by brutalis on Jul 5, 2017 8:35:13 GMT -5
For a kid growing up at the time with a limited budget, Avengers (and JLA for DC) gave the most bang for your copper and silver. Combining big name Stars and B-listers (both as team members and villains) you were guaranteed your money's worth with almost every single issue. Avengers was my TEAM and had both great writing and art throughout it's run. Your own personal mileage may vary but for me it was the best team book out there.
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