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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 2, 2018 13:27:02 GMT -5
Brian Falsworth being the Destroyer is a retcon. The original was a journalist, named Keen Marlow, who was trapped in Germany and who drinks the potion given to him, by a scientist. Roy tweaked it into being Brian Falsworth and that Keen Marlow was a cover name. You'll see Lord Falsworth and Jacqueline in the next issue. This still grates on my nerves as one of Roy's totally unecessary retcons. Roy himself admitted he didn't really remember why he did it. For one thing, he doesn't know how titles and last names work. There's no reason the character couldn't be "Keen Marlow, Lord Falsworth." For another, we had an existing British hero, Citizen V, who was almost a complete cipher. He could easily have made him Lord Falsworth and found some other way to bring in the Destroyer.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2018 0:35:55 GMT -5
Brian Falsworth being the Destroyer is a retcon. The original was a journalist, named Keen Marlow, who was trapped in Germany and who drinks the potion given to him, by a scientist. Roy tweaked it into being Brian Falsworth and that Keen Marlow was a cover name. You'll see Lord Falsworth and Jacqueline in the next issue. This still grates on my nerves as one of Roy's totally unecessary retcons. Roy himself admitted he didn't really remember why he did it. For one thing, he doesn't know how titles and last names work. There's no reason the character couldn't be "Keen Marlow, Lord Falsworth." For another, we had an existing British hero, Citizen V, who was almost a complete cipher. He could easily have made him Lord Falsworth and found some other way to bring in the Destroyer. Well, he wanted to create a British equivalent to Captain America, which was Union Jack. I have never heard him say (nor read in an interview) whether he started with the idea of Montgomery Falsworth and decided to change it later or always had it in mind that Falsworth would only be Union Jack to introduce it, before the new UJ came along. Based on that initial Baron Blood story, the latter would seem to be the case, as Falsworth was crippled rather quickly. While, yeah, he could have used Citizen V, that was both really obscure and wasn't exactly a name that really grabbed your imagination, like Union Jack. I was kind of surprised he never used some of the other Timely characters, like the Black Marvel, the original Vision, and the Blazing Skull, in the Invaders. The Vision, Blazing Skull and the original Angel are part of the group that Rick Jones manifested in the Kree-Skrull War, along with the Patriot, Cap, Namor and Torch; and, the Fin! You don't get much more obscure than the Fin, apart from some of the characters in The Twelve. I guess Roy just used the ones he liked, as he tended to ignore certain DC Golden Age heroes in All-Star Squadron, in favor of a few others, like Johnny Quick and Liberty Belle.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 3, 2018 12:46:42 GMT -5
I really liked Union Jack! More than Citizen V ... I just don't understand why he felt the need to mess with the Destroyer. Since Citizen V didn't have much of a real name origin, he could have easily had the original be revealed as Brian Falsworth, have him become the new Union Jack, and had someone else become the new Citizen V if he wanted. It's not that I'm precious about retconning the Destroyer, it's just that it makes things more complicated than they need to be for no benefit.
I considered writing a fanfic once in which I revealed that all those cloned heroes created by Rick Jones had actually been teleported away by the the Kree Supreme Whatever, who was sending them around outer space on missions. I think that would have been a great series and I'm sorry Roy Thomas never thought of it.
Speaking of, have you heard of the unpublished 'first draft' of the Invaders?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2018 15:28:59 GMT -5
I really liked Union Jack! More than Citizen V ... I just don't understand why he felt the need to mess with the Destroyer. Since Citizen V didn't have much of a real name origin, he could have easily had the original be revealed as Brian Falsworth, have him become the new Union Jack, and had someone else become the new Citizen V if he wanted. It's not that I'm precious about retconning the Destroyer, it's just that it makes things more complicated than they need to be for no benefit. I considered writing a fanfic once in which I revealed that all those cloned heroes created by Rick Jones had actually been teleported away by the the Kree Supreme Whatever, who was sending them around outer space on missions. I think that would have been a great series and I'm sorry Roy Thomas never thought of it. Speaking of, have you heard of the unpublished 'first draft' of the Invaders? No, that's a new one on me. The only "first draft" I am aware of is the Avengers storyline, where they meet up with Cap, Namor and Torch in WW2, in Avengers #71 (not to mention the two All-Winners Squad appearances).
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 4, 2018 13:06:52 GMT -5
Yeah ... it waa to be drawn by Barry Smith and never got published. It was to be a team consisting of Bucky, the Whizzer, and Red Raven which to my mind is a simply horrid lineup. But still, if I had my druthers, I'd love to see the strip completed and published, maybe along with a second strip starring the Patriot, Miss America, Jack Frost, and Blue Diamond.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 12, 2018 20:13:31 GMT -5
Invaders #20The CoverA solid Kane cover here, with Union Jack and company charging at the reader. Jack's face looks a little more Black Panther-esque compared to his earlier cover appearance. Maybe its the roundness of it? Anyways, the colours are fantastic...this one really pops. Plus he promise blurb of reprint of Subby's first app?? Count me in! The StoryUnion Jack has arrived to save the day! It is quickly revealed that it is Lord Falsworth's son, Brian (who was also the Destroyer from last ish. He frees the Invaders and battle ensues. Torch saves Cap from a Nazi gunner, who then guns down Toro. In a fir of anger, Torch burns the Nazi solider to death! Gruesome! Meanwhile, Hitler is trying to have Warrior Woman and Master Man married and ends up having to utter the marriage announcement himself after the minister is crushed to death in the battle. Warrior Woman is not happy and takes out her aggression in battle. The Invaders try hard but these two are quite strong. Hitler takes off and commandeers a bomber plane (beautifully drawn by Robbins I might add). He has Cap's shield still and as they take to the air, he suggests dropping bombs on his own men and the Invaders in order to end them forever. Unbeknownst to ole Adolf, Dyna-Mitre has jumped aboard and is trying to figure out what to do to save the day. The story ends here in order to start the reprint of Subby's first ever appearance. It was pretty good. Suby kills some men who are exploring a shipwreck and demolishes their ship. He takes the bodies home as trophies and his mother recounts his origin and why they hate the surface men. Definitely not a hero, which is maybe why he never gained a great love. I mean, during the way, it worked because he was fighting "surface men" the world hated. But after the war, he still hated humans and that makes him more villain than hero. This may have lost him some love after the Golden Age. OpinionsIn the letters page, it is revealed that they were again late for their deadline, which is why we get half a story and a very quick one at that. Obviously, Destroyer aka Union Jack aka Brian Falsworth survived the grenade attack from a few issues ago. How, we do not know, nor how he came into acquisition of the costume...yet anyways. This story continues to cruise along nicely. My only comment here is why would Destroyer be retconned to be Brian Falsworth if Brian is now going to just be Union Jack? Unless there is more coming. Also, poor Toro took quite the hit via some gunfire. Will he survive? Is it bad if I hope not?! Quote of the IssueJacqueline's pummelled Warrior Woman with enough haymakers to take out Joe Palooka, Popeye and Big ben Bolt--and she's still standing!- Captain America's declaration after Wonder Woman survives a barrage from Spitfire. I like how he references some classic cartoon characters. Although I think I deserve a No-Prize! According to some brief research, Big Ben Bolt did not come about until the 50's....well after WWII.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 23:45:30 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 13, 2018 1:58:50 GMT -5
Roy isn't done with the Destroyer, yet. The half issues really interrupts the flow of the climax and weakens it, in my opinion. It wasn't a good sign of things to come (and had already happened before). Robbins knew his aircraft, a regular feature of his Johnny Hazard strip.
Unfortunately, Warrior Woman and Master Man go missing for most of the series, before coming back for the last few issues, which I always felt was a mistake. I kind of get the feeling this was pretty much the end of Roy's original ideas for the series; and, after, he was spinning his wheels trying to find a good idea, before leaving the book entirely.
I think Roy wanted to reference comic strip boxers and just forgot that Big Ben Bolt came later. Really, he would have been better off referencing Joe Louis, especially his defeat of Max Schmeling.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 13, 2018 9:45:35 GMT -5
Invaders #20The CoverA solid Kane cover here, with Union Jack and company charging at the reader. Jack's face looks a little more Black Panther-esque compared to his earlier cover appearance. Maybe its the roundness of it? Anyways, the colours are fantastic...this one really pops. Plus he promise blurb of reprint of Subby's first app?? Count me in! Kane scores again. I remember some fans buying this issue for the cover alone. Pretty tense action in every direction. The involvement of Hitler deserved more of an extended arc in the title, since he was--after all--the core of all of the Invaders' troubles. Roy should have taken influence from DC; since he padded out this issue with a Golden Age reprint, Marvel could have increased the cover price to 40 cents and added relevant Golden Age stories as the regular back-up. Like DC's great 80 Page Giant and 100 Page titles, it would give fans a current story of varying lengths, but provided a look at what came before (and would have spared fans the shock of ever having to pursue expensive Golden Age issues).
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 28, 2018 16:00:49 GMT -5
Invaders #21The CoverAnother Gil Kane piece here and it is not bad. I feel like it may have been rushed (or possibly not done entirely by Kane). The detail on Subby and Master Man in the background is a bit weak. There is definitely a lot going on. And is Toro actually dead!?!? Have my wishes been answered? I know that sounds terrible but I did not like him as a character. I posted the Whitman cover because that happens to be the one I have The StoryTo recap, Hitler has Cap’s shield. His Nazis are battling the Invaders below as he makes his escape in a bomber plane and plans to bomb his own men in order to kill the Invaders. Dyna-Mite is on board though and he reveals that he , Lord Falsworth and their German friend Oskar, were freed from capture by the Destroyer aka Brian Falsworth! Brian reveals himself and a family union ensues. He explains that he managed to duck into a manhole cover to avoid his supposed death a few issues back. Anyways, they commandeer a vehicle and head to rescue the Invaders. On their way, Lord Falsworth gives his son the Union Jack costume. They arrive and while the new Union Jack helps the Invaders, Dyna-Mite, Oskar and Lord Falsworth commandeer the very plane that Hitler is now on. He does not realize that the pilots are not his men. Dyna-Mite leaps to the attack which to me was foolish because this allows Hitler to parachute to escape, as he realizes he is not amongst friends. Meanwhile, the fight rages on below until Master Man notices that the plane above is circling. He suspects that something is amiss and goes to attack but Dyna-Mite launches a bomb at Master Man, which knocks him out. The rest of the team uses this distraction to get on board the plane (Namor, Torch and Spitfire fly everyone up and in). They manage to escape the chasing planes and land the plane out at sea. Toro is still in bad shape and Torch vows revenge if he happens to die. OpinionsAnother issue cut in half and filled with an old Sub-Mariner story half way through. I did not mind this as much last ish but I felt they kind of rushed the conclusion of their escape here, as well as the reveal on Brian Falsworth as the new Union Jack. Still not sure why Thomas felt the need to bring up the Destroyer. I liked the look of that character but now it seems like he will not be seen again, which is a shame. I feel he could have tied Brian in a different way, allowing him to still become Union Jack without changing the back story of the Destroyer and still keep that character available for future use. Then again, I am reading this through for the first time so maybe that does happen. I just felt that this was a rushed conclusion to a good story. There are still some loose ends to tie up, which they promise to do so in a full issue in the final blurb...I hope it turns out to be a good story! Quote Of The IssueCaptain America hates guns...just as FDR said a few years back that he hates war...but when war came, the patrician from Hyde Park was up to the job...and Captain America can do no less!- describing Cap as he takes to the turret to fend of the attacking planes as they make their escape.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 28, 2018 22:59:47 GMT -5
This storyline had such a great buildup; but, the conclusion falls flat, in part because of the splitting of the story over the two issues; but, also, it felt like Roy painted himself in a corner and didn't know how to get out. Toro was never particularly handled well, in this series; and, you could argue that Bucky wasn't either, though he came off much better. I don't know whether Roy didn't like him; but, felt he was necessary, or he just went overboard with the "hot-head" personality trope.
Having the heroes get that close to Hitler was probably pushing things a bit. You really don't want to muck about with history that much, even in a fantasy comic. Hitler parachuting to safety is a bit much. It would have made more sense for Master Man or Warrior Woman to whisk him to safety.
We will see Destroyer again.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 31, 2018 22:50:13 GMT -5
The Invaders #22The CoverA myriad of artists get credit according to a couple sources. Kane, Giacoia and Irv Watanabe. The faces along the side just don't seem like Kane's to me...maybe I am wrong. I like this cover though, overall. The Torches look good front and center and in the background we have Asbestos Lady! The name sounds lame but there is something about the costume I like. Perhaps it is the green and purple combo. She looks pretty tough! Hopefully she is a decent villain. The StoryWe start with the Invaders being rescued from a British ship, the HMS Forester. I did a quick search and this was an actual ship that found during this time period, so that is a nice touch. Anyway, they are taken to a nearby island with a hospital to care for the wounded Toro. It is here that Spitfire wonders why the Toro and Namor could not recover as quickly from being drugged by the Nazis in the previous issues. Torch then launches into Toro's back story, how Torch found him in the circus and took him under his wing. Spitire adds in her knowledge of how Toro's parents died in a train crash and that is where his ability was first witnessed as he was able to hold onto a piece of molten hot metal without getting burned. This is how he was recruited as a sideshow act. Well Torch then gets into the real backstory of Toro. Torch tells of how he was lonely and went back to his creator, Dr. Horton. Torch says how sad he is that there is no one else like him. Dr. Horton then tells Torch about a previous assistant he had named Fred Raymond. Raymond fell ill after years of working with asbestos and left laboratory work. He married and had a son named Toro, however he and his wife (who also fell ill) feared they would not get to see their son grow up. The two were taking medication just to survive. One night, the villain Asbestos Lady bursts into their home. She threatens Fred's family, saying she will harm them if he does not come work for her. That is when Torch shows up and saves them. He learns of Toro's immunity to fire, that he is a mutant. Torch vows to protect and watch over them so he can follow Toro as he grows up but the family took that fateful trip on the train that crashed without Torch knowing. Torch reveals that is was Asbestos Lady who caused the crash. No one knew that Toro survived until news of his sideshow act surfaced. Torch knew that Asbestos Lady would go to finish what she started, so be headed to find Toro first. Naturally, he encounters Asbestos Lady on her way to kill Toro and stops her. When Torch arrives at the circus, he says it is his own intense flame (that he used to defeat Asbestos Lady) that causes Toro to catch fire. This is why he feels responsible for the boy so much. We end with the team bowing their heads and saying a prayer for their injured team member. OpinionsThis issue did a nice job of adding to the depth of Torch's character. We see how and why he feels responsible for Toro and all that has happened to the young sidekick. After all, Torch was supposed to protect his family and that did not happen. This adds some more depth to Torch's character, along with the fact that he feels isolated being an android. Asbestos Lady was ok. Nothing special. It was all flashback action, which I don't mind and I understand sometimes you need it to develop a character. To me, the explanation of Toro bursting into flame because Torch was nearby seems a bit flat for me. I was expecting that, when Torch went back to see Dr. Horton, that there was gonna be an attempt to clone Torch that they think fails, but ends up producing Toro. Or, another idea I had, was possibly seeing Torch recap a past love affair that yielded Toro (perhaps that was too much for Marvel at the time to try and tackle). It was a good story with a blah ending explaining Toro's flame ability. Just say he was a mutant and happened to develop his powers and be done with it. Torch already has his connection, no need to pile on the extra "oh I am responsible for everything that has happened to him" The artwork inside this one is a split of Mooney and Springer. I like Mooney. As mentioned earlier, it is kinda nice seeing someone else draw. Quote of the Issue"They told me, then, how young Toro had once plucked baked potatoes from a blazing campfire"- Torch hearing of Toro's abilities for the first time from his parents. The image below shows Toro doing it. My question...who throws whole potatoes into a fire to cook them? No tinfoil? No grill over the fire? Come on.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 1, 2018 0:33:46 GMT -5
This one felt dull, especially after the stretch that preceded it. They can't all be great and it is hard to switch gears. I really tend to think that Roy had several ideas he wanted to use in this series and he had pretty much done them; and, now he was out of good ideas, so he started reaching for character bits. Nothing wrong with that; it can create great stories. However, it all just seemed a bit flat, like Roy really didn't have a strong idea or Toro; but felt like he needed to do something with him. He seems to be caught in the loop of, "Something must be done, this is something,; therefore, this must be done." It works better for the Torch, as a father figure and mentor to Toro; but, I kind of felt Roy had kind of forgotten the whole angle he had built about Torch's feelings of inadequacy about being artificial, especially after Jacqueline fell for Cap. This is kind of a rough period for the book. We're having deadline issues (which were a huge problem at Marvel, in this period) and story momentum keeps getting interrupted. Roy's next story gets interrupted in the middle and we get more reprints. Roy continues for a few issues, then hands over to Donald Glut, whose work I like, but less on superheroes (and more on Tragg and the Sky Gods and Dagar, the Invincible).
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 1, 2018 1:58:41 GMT -5
Invaders #21The CoverAnother Gil Kane piece here and it is not bad. I feel like it may have been rushed (or possibly not done entirely by Kane). The detail on Subby and Master Man in the background is a bit weak. There is definitely a lot going on. And is Toro actually dead!?!? Have my wishes been answered? I know that sounds terrible but I did not like him as a character. The cover was penciled by Kane, inked by Frank Giacoia. Giacoia, while a sound inker, was not a good fit for Kane, because it merely appeared he was tracing Kane's roughs and not really embellishing it. Moreover, late 1970s Kane got into a sort of rushed, "thin" style not at all like his 60s or early 70s work. This style would continue well into his return to DC on series such as the otherwise great Sword of the Atom. The story certainly takes an interesting turn with Hitler being so physically energetic, when the real man was already ailing by the time set in this issue. I'm not sure who thought the idea of Cap "hating" guns was such a bright idea, as the character's Timely days had him unafraid of picking up a gun, and made no mention of "hating" them.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 1, 2018 2:27:10 GMT -5
The Invaders #22 I guess its a serviceable cover. Nothing as dynamic as The Invaders#20, perhaps Kane's best for the title. Aside from the exploration of the Torch as an individual, another Toro origin, previously covered in the reprint title Fantasy Masterpieces (#11, October, 1967) was sort of bleh. It was probably thought to be necessary, as the other Invaders were so well developed, and then-current readers may not even recall that 1967 reprint of the Golden Age story, but still, it was just...there.
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