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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 8:30:23 GMT -5
I'll absolutely agree with CodyStarbuck that the battle scenes really had little to no meaning to me. There was no real feeling of weight or danger to them. They were just frenetic happenings. I saw it again a couple of days ago and this statement by Slam Bradley sums up my 2nd viewing and right now -- I'm not interested in buying the DVD for my own collection and I consider this movie is too much overwhelming and underwhelming at the same time. I didn't enjoy this movie the 2nd time around and that's pretty much sums up my feelings about it. The bold part of Slam's comments here is SPOT ON! He's right on the nose.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 11, 2018 22:46:59 GMT -5
I have deliberately never opened this thread before now because I didn't want anything to taint my reaction to the movie. And nothing did. I managed to avoid all but a few unimportant spoilers before I saw it this afternoon. Here is my initial reaction. When I am done posting this, I will go back and read everyone else's thoughts. I apologize in advance if I inadvertently repeat what anyone else has already said. Great minds thinking alike, not plagiarism. And, oh, yeah,
Spoliers ahead! (probably)
Let's get it out of the way up front. We all know I hate Thanos and cosmic storylines and blah, blah, blah, right? It practically defines who good ol' Cei-U! is. And damned if those gorgeous bastards at Marvel Studios didn't come up with a version of the character I could respect. Oh, he's still a genocidal madman, but the nature of his insanity has changed (for the better, storywise). Instead of a laughably literal love affair with death he has a messiah complex. Thanos sincerely believes that by randomly wiping from existence half of everything living throughout the universe, he will bring about a Golden Age for the surviving half. Like any religious zealot worth his salt, he is willing to commit any sin to achieve this destiny. I believe this Thanos. He is scary as f*** and, thanks in no small part to Josh Brolin's understated performance, somehow sympathetic too. Bravo.
So there's that. Otherwise, I got pretty much everything I went in expecting to see: uniformly great acting by both live and CGI actors (kudos to Downey, Saldana, Holland, Olsen, and Bettany), stellar fight choreography, jaw-droppingly gorgeous sets, wonderful character beats, and buttloads of super-heroic action. I think they made some poor choices in the juxtaposition of certain scenes that I found disorienting. I think many characters were underserved, especially Steve. And I still don't like the kozmik macguffinism of the Infinity Stones. Might as well call them Magic Wishing Stones for Lazy Writers. But, oh well.
None of the deaths in the movie upset me because I went through this all back in Jim Shooter's Korvac Saga and I know that somehow most of the crew seen biting the dust (okay, becoming the dust) will be resurrected before the end of the next movie. Someone of sufficient moral rectitude will don the Infinity Gauntlet after Thanos is laid low by his own flaws like a proper tragic hero and will put everything to rights without succumbing to the temptation to impose their own will on reality. It will probably cost them their life. I expect it to be Cap. Or maybe Adam Warlock. And it all happens because Dr. Strange did the one thing guaranteed to make that one alternate future in which the good guys win come to pass.
Either that or they'll totally steal Grant Morrison's takedown of Darkseid from "Rock of Ages" using the MIA Hawkeye and Ant-Man. "He's in your brain, you ugly..." [insert evil grin here]
Cei-U! I summon the thumbs up!
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Post by rberman on May 12, 2018 8:31:32 GMT -5
What amazes me most is that this poster can exist, with the reasonable assumption that the average moviegoer already knows each of these characters and can tell you something about them all before even setting foot in the theater to see this film. Say what you will about these movies playing it safe and having lots of CGI fights. They have also introduced dozens of comic book characters into the popular consciousness. Did you ever imagine teenage girls walking around wearing THOR T-shirts? Or loving Groot??? "Inconceivable!"
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Post by robsuperfriend63 on May 12, 2018 12:16:16 GMT -5
Saw the film and I understand why some were upset with the ending but I knew before this film was released that this was only part 1 of the story. As for the "deaths" of some of the superheroes, people need to remember that death in comics is not the same as death in real life. Also I'm not surprised that the original Avengers team was spared, and even though Hawkeye wasn't in this film I'm assuming he is still alive. I hope he is in part 2. The original team will take Thanos down and and set everything right. I'm just sorry we have to wait for May 2019 to see it.
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Post by Randle-El on May 12, 2018 14:06:54 GMT -5
What amazes me most is that this poster can exist, with the reasonable assumption that the average moviegoer already knows each of these characters and can tell you something about them all before even setting foot in the theater to see this film. Say what you will about these movies playing it safe and having lots of CGI fights. They have also introduced dozens of comic book characters into the popular consciousness. Did you ever imagine teenage girls walking around wearing THOR T-shirts? Or loving Groot??? "Inconceivable!" You can say what you want about the films themselves. Whatever your opinion of them may be, you have to respect what Marvel Studios has accomplished as a business entity. They started out with a handicap, their parent company having licensed away what are arguably their most valuable IPs (X-Men and Spidey) to other studios. So they are left with trying to make blockbuster tentpole films with their B and C list characters. Sure, Iron Man, Cap, Thor, et al had their following. But possibly with the exception of Hulk, none of those characters had the kind of mass appeal that was enjoyed by Spidey and the X-Men. Characters like Guardians of the Galaxy, Black Panther, and Dr. Strange were even more obscure to the average joe. Yet Marvel found a way to make them household names. I'll admit that I thought the Guardians of the Galaxy movie was going to be their first big flop. That movie proved that Marvel can pretty much do whatever they want. Makes me wonder what they could have done with the Inhumans had Marvel Studios chosen to do a film rather than having Marvel TV get their hands on it.
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Post by spoon on May 12, 2018 21:50:56 GMT -5
MANY SPOILERS BELOW!
I saw Infinity War for the second time tonight. I really enjoyed it. It holds up on re-watching really well, even knowing all the twists. I didn't really notice any Easter eggs or minor details. I think the movie with pretty clear. Maybe I picked up a few bits of dialogue better. I did realize one interesting bit of the dialogue. Toward the end, Vision tells Wanda, "I only feel you." That was a callback to their first scene, when Wanda is probing the Mind Stone and tells Vision, "I only feel you."
Also, this time I paid attention to the Stones when Thanos uses them. Whichever Stone he uses lights up. Because I believe the Power Stone intensifies the effects of other Stones, sometimes it lights up at the same time as another.
Another thing I did was listen to the audience responses. I'm so used to seeing Marvel movies the first weekend, but it seemed like a lot of the audience were seeing it for the first time yet remained unspoiled, because there were gasps or cheers that seem to indicate surprise. For instance, there was applause when Wanda destroyed the Mind Stone. But I'd think folks that saw it wouldn't cheer that moment, because it's undone fairly quickly. Whenever one of Thanos's four main minions was killed (whatever their called), the audience cheered.
But both times I've seen Infinity War, the biggest cheer came from the same moment: Thor's appearance on Earth. Or more specifically after the axe returns to him and you finally see Thor standing there, flanked by Rocket and Groot. I wonder why that's the biggest moment for people. My suspicion is that Thor gets his butt kicked for much of Ragnarok and most of Infinity War up to that point, so it's satisfying for people to return to greatness. That's why it resonated to me. Ragnarok is the one MCU move I didn't really like. Thor was treated like a clown, so I was psyched to see him triumphant. Or maybe people were worried that Thor was dead after he reignited the Nidavellir star.
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Post by rberman on May 13, 2018 19:36:21 GMT -5
I saw it again today, this time with my wife. She's not much of a movie-goer but chortled at plenty of fun dialogue moments. Things I noticed the second time out:
* Just as Captain America 3 was really Avengers 3, this film is more Guardians 3 than Avengers 3. The main relationship is between Thanos and Gamora. After Cap, Falcon, and Widow rescue Vision and Scarlet Witch, it's a long time before we see them again, first picking up Rhodey at Avengers HQ and finally showing up near the end of the movie in Wakanda for the big showdown. Thor gets a couple of scenes in the middle to build Stormbringer. But large portions of the film either are about Tony Stark and Stephen Strange (first with Bruce Banner and Wong, then later with Peter Parker), or else are about the Guardians (meeting Thor, going to Knowhere, fighting Thanos there, and doing stuff on Titan, plus the extended Thanos/Gamora/Nebula material). Out curiousity, I counted Black Widow's lines. She had exactly 13 throughout the whole movie, though her presence was also felt in two big fight scenes.
* The Captain America theme music played when he showed up in Scotland. The Avengers Theme was heard during the opening title, then not again until Thor returned to Earth with Stormbringer, finally reuniting the original team in one place. I suspect the next film will be more Avengers-centric, probably with Ant-Man, Hawkeye, and Captain Marvel on board as well.
* Sacrifice was a major theme. Gamora was willing to sacrifice herself to save the galaxy, but she needed Quill's help. Vision was willing to sacrifice himself, but he needed Wanda's help. Thor was willing to risk sacrificing himself to build the hammer. (Why didn't he ever try his lightning powers against Thanos in the opener? We needed that to fail, to justify the risk of building a new hammer.) Thanos was willing to sacrifice Gamora, which he considered a sacrifice on his part of the one thing he loved. Dr. Strange announced his willingness to sacrifice Tony and Peter, but then after seeing into the future realized that sacrificing himself was the right play, so he made it. Loki was unwilling to sacrifice Thor and thus gave Thanos a stone. Gamora was unwilling to sacrifice Nebula and thus gave Thanos another stone.
* Tied up in this sacrifice motif is a lot of biblical imagery. Thanos is called "Almighty" and "Father" by those who bow before him. He sits on a giant judgment throne in his spaceship. Thanos' testing of Quill to kill Gamora recalls God's testing of Abraham to kill Isaac. Thanos' killing of half the universe, with people disappearing out of cars and helicopters, recalls Jesus' Olivet Discourse ("Two men will be working in a field. One will be taken (i.e. killed) and one will be left behind (i.e. spared)") as depicted coming true in various Christian movies depicting the End Times. (Many Christians think the ones "left behind" are the ones being condemned, but that's not actually what Jesus says.) Obviously Thanos has been depicted as one of many evil deity-stand-ins in Marvel Comics for decades, along with Galactus, The Beyonder, etc.
* So... where's our stand-lone Black Widow movie? Is it that hard to come up with a cool spy plot that ties in with the MCU somehow? She and Hawkeye are an obvious pair for it.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 14, 2018 6:13:20 GMT -5
The more they put off a Scarjo Black Widow movie, the more it's chances of not appearing become greater. He's not exactly getting any younger...I remember back in the day the name Tia Carrera was being thrown around for a Shi film, but it never came to pass and she's gotta be in her 50's at this point. Men seem to get films into their 60's and 70's but women get shown the door in their late 30's.
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Post by coke & comics on May 20, 2018 14:44:13 GMT -5
Seen it three times now. I consider it a true event. I have never seen a movie like it. It reminds me more of a superhero comic than any movie before and less of other movies than any other Hollywood blockbuster.
I thought everything about it was just magnificent and I want to see it again.
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Post by coke & comics on May 20, 2018 14:47:11 GMT -5
Overall...it was okay. I didn't love it. I didn't hate it. I wasn't overawed. I wasn't particularly disappointed. I'm not sure that it's superhero film overload because I've really enjoyed most of Marvel's output and at least liked the rest. And I didn't dislike this. I just didn't think it was in any way special. I likely doesn't help that Thanos means absolutely nothing to me. And his motivation is, in my opinion, weak. It seems almost of necessity that when you have this many characters nobody is going to shine. And that's pretty much how it felt. I guess if anyone got a bit of extra spotlight it was Downey/Stark which is maybe fitting since he started the whole magilla. I'll absolutely agree with CodyStarbuck that the battle scenes really had little to no meaning to me. There was no real feeling of weight or danger to them. They were just frenetic happenings. I'm frankly way more interested in the next Ant-Man movie. They shine in their own movies. The point here was to have them together. Get a bunch onscreen at once. Steal moments from odd pairings with cool if brief interactions. Like Rocket and Winter Soldier. No character needed more than a few moments. And they all got theirs. The only central character was Thanos. This was his story. And I think Brolin nailed it.
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Post by coke & comics on May 20, 2018 14:53:36 GMT -5
One big problem I have pinpointed with these things for me is fight choreography. It's a problem with a lot of superhero material, in the comics and on screen. Too much time seems to be spent on a cool shot or pose, rather than telling a story via the battle. It's the same thing that pulled me away from being a pro wrestling fan. Good matches and good movie fights have a story to them, there is an ebb and flow. Everything on screen should mean something. Look at the fight between Robert Shaw and Sean Connery, in From Russia With Love. It's brutal, but it isn't a flurry of kicks and punches. There are moves and counter moves; but, there is also selling of the impact of the move. The selling is part of the drama and sets the emotional tone of the fight. Same in pro wrestling. It's why Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat matches were so perfect. They knew how to make every little movement, every expression, every stance have meaning. They didn't do 10 moves in 8 seconds. They did two in 10 seconds and got more crowd response than entire matches, these days. Same with many of the fights we see in these. There is a lot of rapid punching and kicking and blasting. There is often no rhyme or reason why one person is more powerful at one point and weaker at another. It's not every film or every scene; but, the Avengers films have suffered from it more than the solos, to my mind. That's what feels like a video game; just a lot of bodies punching each other. Here and there you get more impactful moments; but, not consistently. I do think the Russos did a pretty good job of establishing the stakes, to give the fights more resonance; but, I do think the very nature of so many characters on screen lessened the impact of some of the fighting. The rapid pace of modern editing is also a big contributor to these things, where a simple fight sequence might have 10-15 cuts, vs 4 or 5. If Bruce Lee had that kind of editing in his films, his fights would have been 10 seconds long. I absolutely agree these are not Bruce Lee films, but they're really not supposed to be. It's something that other films have done well, but not really what these are aiming for. From a traditional perspective the action scenes aren't really action scenes. The goal of them is character and melodrama. The cuts focus on actor's faces, not how who they are punching affects the overall battle logistics. The movie thinks it's enough that you appreciate how Captain America is feeling at the moment in the story. And I tend to agree. I can think of very few Marvel films that put much effort into fight choreography. Maybe the ending of Civil War comes closest. But even that is mostly interested in how the characters feel about battling each other.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2018 22:19:09 GMT -5
One big problem I have pinpointed with these things for me is fight choreography. It's a problem with a lot of superhero material, in the comics and on screen. Too much time seems to be spent on a cool shot or pose, rather than telling a story via the battle. It's the same thing that pulled me away from being a pro wrestling fan. Good matches and good movie fights have a story to them, there is an ebb and flow. Everything on screen should mean something. Look at the fight between Robert Shaw and Sean Connery, in From Russia With Love. It's brutal, but it isn't a flurry of kicks and punches. There are moves and counter moves; but, there is also selling of the impact of the move. The selling is part of the drama and sets the emotional tone of the fight. Same in pro wrestling. It's why Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat matches were so perfect. They knew how to make every little movement, every expression, every stance have meaning. They didn't do 10 moves in 8 seconds. They did two in 10 seconds and got more crowd response than entire matches, these days. Same with many of the fights we see in these. There is a lot of rapid punching and kicking and blasting. There is often no rhyme or reason why one person is more powerful at one point and weaker at another. It's not every film or every scene; but, the Avengers films have suffered from it more than the solos, to my mind. That's what feels like a video game; just a lot of bodies punching each other. Here and there you get more impactful moments; but, not consistently. I do think the Russos did a pretty good job of establishing the stakes, to give the fights more resonance; but, I do think the very nature of so many characters on screen lessened the impact of some of the fighting. The rapid pace of modern editing is also a big contributor to these things, where a simple fight sequence might have 10-15 cuts, vs 4 or 5. If Bruce Lee had that kind of editing in his films, his fights would have been 10 seconds long. I absolutely agree these are not Bruce Lee films, but they're really not supposed to be. It's something that other films have done well, but not really what these are aiming for. From a traditional perspective the action scenes aren't really action scenes. The goal of them is character and melodrama. The cuts focus on actor's faces, not how who they are punching affects the overall battle logistics. The movie thinks it's enough that you appreciate how Captain America is feeling at the moment in the story. And I tend to agree. I can think of very few Marvel films that put much effort into fight choreography. Maybe the ending of Civil War comes closest. But even that is mostly interested in how the characters feel about battling each other. The closest comparison, to me, is the major battles of Lord of the Rings, where you have hordes of people fighting one another. I do think Peter Jackson plotted them out better, so that there is more of a story flow to them, while still having his cool moments. It helps that Tolkien added so many dramatic moments to those battles. I think the other big factor there was a greater use of stunt men, vs pure CGI. Your eye spots the difference and that pulls me out of this film more than some of the other MCU films. By contrast, the Captain America films have had more physical stunts and minimal CGI. You can still spot the wire stunts; but, those don't feel as wonky, to me. Funny thing is, The Guardians films don't have the same issue for me, in that area. I think it's the fact that so much of the environment is alien and artificial that the use of CGI seems more natural. Also, the darker space settings seems to work better with CGI. There's definitely a difference between how the various MCU directors have used CGI. I still wish more used a bigger mix of practical stunts; but, that seems to be the way of Hollywood, these days. By contrast, Thor is one where I really wish they would go more fantastic, in terms of story. Ragnarok was a nice step in that direction. For one thing, there was a sense of fun with it, while still having serious stakes. It was a nice blend that kind of felt missing, from the others. I also like the fact that they finally got a decent villain, besides Loki. They still need to really work on that for the film series. I'm hoping that they will open up some more obscure properties with coming films, rather than immediately start rebooting the Avengers ones, since contracts are up for most of them. I'd be up for things like Moon Knight, a Moench-Gulacy-based Master of Kung Fu, Killraven, Deathlok, Dominic Fortune, Tomb of Dracula, a better attempt at Howard the Duck, a Black Widow solo film (look towards that Perez story, from marvel Fanfare, or the Gulacy one, from Marvel Preview magazine), Captain Britain, Damage Control (should have been a comedic tv series, not a throwaway element of Spider-Man Homecoming). Maybe a Squadron Supreme mini-series, like on Netflix. I'm sure they would probably go more the Supreme Power route; but, the Gruenwald mini would make for a good drama series. Might want to pare down the roster a bit, though.
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Post by MWGallaher on May 21, 2018 13:42:01 GMT -5
Late to the party, but I finally saw it (while my wife was busy at a literal party, I took the opportunity to go to a film I knew she had no interest in. I can only cajole her into one or two superhero movies a year, so I'm reserving Ant-Man & the Wasp and Aquaman). Random comments:
While I applaud them for letting Josh Brolin actually voice Thanos reasonably naturally, rather than going for the generic super-villain voice (like JL's Steppenwulf, or the big bad robot in Transformers, whatever his name was), I did cringe a little when one of Thanos's lines included the phrase "snuck aboard the ship." OK, I've got no problem with "snuck" transitioning from slang to accepted conjugation in modern English, but it still sounds juvenile coming out of the likes of the Mad Titan.
Maybe I'm just demonstrating some latent prejudice against New York accents, but Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner came across as a little dim. I remember him as being more sophisticated and academic-sounding in the first Avengers movie (the only other Ruffalo Banner film I've seen), but I wondered if this was an intentional foreshadowing of a merger between Banner and the Hulk, reverting to the mean of their two intellects? Was he like this in Ragnarok?
Strange's summary of the alternate futures made the implications of his last words (and the deal with Thanos) pretty obvious. But there was a more subtle aspect of Strange's actions that I hope will pay off in the sequel: the prospect that certain small details in the final battle were very intentional and will provide information critical to the inevitable Avengers victory. Or maybe not, but I hope so.
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Post by rberman on May 21, 2018 14:17:01 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just demonstrating some latent prejudice against New York accents, but Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner came across as a little dim. I remember him as being more sophisticated and academic-sounding in the first Avengers movie (the only other Ruffalo Banner film I've seen), but I wondered if this was an intentional foreshadowing of a merger between Banner and the Hulk, reverting to the mean of their two intellects? Was he like this in Ragnarok? Yes, Banner was dazed in Ragnarok as well, as a result of having spent 3 years nonstop in Hulk form.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 7:58:31 GMT -5
Watched it Sunday. Fun, lots of action, very well done! Despite such a large cast, I felt like everyone had something to do. Loved seeing the Guardians of the Galaxy. Enjoyed Thor and Dr. Strange in action. Bring on 2019 to see how this winds up!
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