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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 18, 2018 16:08:50 GMT -5
Valiant proved to be different, as the stories there were of developing young talent, like David Lapham, and giving the pros their freedom (like Layton, Perlin and BWS). I don't know about Shooter giving pros their freedom. Most of the artwork produced seemed to conform to a homogeneous house style. Steve Englehart stated on his website that he stopped writing Shadowman because Shooter didn't want writing that deviated from his own style.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 18, 2018 21:19:11 GMT -5
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. I did get hooked on comics when Shooter was E-I-C at Marvel. He had some good ideas, I even sent one in about having a page of information on each character way before that handbook stuff (I thought maybe two on a back cover that could be cut out and kept like trading cards). I even agreed that Phoenix should die after all the beings she'd wiped out, but somewhere I guess he became Dark Shooter? I cared nothing for the Secret Wars, although I hated Crisis far more. I saw him at a convention once and he seemed surrounded by gloom and giving off vibes almost like an undertaker. Maybe something was going on I didn't know about. I was intimidated, and I was spending time with Dick Giordano (who would allow my beloved Supergirl to be killed). It was just impossible not to want to talk to Mr. Giordano even with his hearing problem. The two seemed like night and day to me from my very limited exposure. I'm thinking now that this was maybe when Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen had Shooter to themselves or something. McFarlane got a job for Infinity Inc. right there in front of everyone at the DC booth though (again, memory, I might have some details wrong and conventions blurring together). They both really had their sh*t together, later I would know how to have mine together too even if it turned out mostly for naught.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 18, 2018 21:57:10 GMT -5
Valiant proved to be different, as the stories there were of developing young talent, like David Lapham, and giving the pros their freedom (like Layton, Perlin and BWS). I don't know about Shooter giving pros their freedom. Most of the artwork produced seemed to conform to a homogeneous house style. Steve Englehart stated on his website that he stopped writing Shadowman because Shooter didn't want writing that deviated from his own style. Depends on your point of view; I haven't seen any squawking from Bob Layton, Barry Windsor Smith or Don Perlin. Englehart and Shooter had a history and different views on the writing; so, I don't doubt the y butted heads. Like I say, I haven't seen too much put out there attacking Shooter during the Valiant era, compared to Marvel. Seemed like he had mellowed a bit. Now, the Defiant launch was another matter. He got called on the carpet about puffing up his resume, in press releases, though a lot of the people who were bringing criticisms had axes to grind from Marvel. he definitely tried to claim credit for creating the graphic novel and got laughed out of the park, on that one; but, there did seem to be some sharpened knives, in some corners, when Defiant launched. I didn't care for his persona and actions at Marvel, at the end of his tenure; but, I thought he did good work at Valiant and was willing to give Defiant a chance, based on that. Once I saw the books, I was less enthused. War Dancer was the only one I bought more than a couple of issues and that was down to Alan Weiss. I gave Broadway a try but, dropped them pretty quickly. It just seemed kind of generic. The house style was deliberate on Valiant, and was based around BWS and Layton; so, I didn't mind too much. I was mostly reading the BWS books and XO Manowar, with Layton, and dropped Shadowman by the time of Unity. I didn't care for Bloodshot, Turok was a big disappointment (Bart Sears art didn't help lackluster scripts), and Magnus had kind of run its course, by Unity. My big faves were Archer & Armstrong and Eternal Warrior, with the 10 issue run of Solar as the high point of it.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 19, 2018 13:00:29 GMT -5
Englehart and Shooter had a history and different views on the writing; so, I don't doubt they butted heads. What history did Englehart and Shooter have? I thought most of Englehart's problems at Marvel were with Gerry Conway, who booted him off Avengers so he could write it himself, and Tom DeFalco, who interfered with Englehart's work on Silver Surfer, Fantastic Four and, finally, West Coast Avengers.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 19, 2018 13:34:44 GMT -5
Englehart and Shooter had a history and different views on the writing; so, I don't doubt they butted heads. What history did Englehart and Shooter have? I thought most of Englehart's problems at Marvel were with Gerry Conway, who booted him off Avengers so he could write it himself, and Tom DeFalco, who interfered with Englehart's work on Silver Surfer, Fantastic Four and, finally, West Coast Avengers. I don't think they had a pre-existing beef, Englehart just didn't provide the type of work that Shooter wanted for Valiant.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 19, 2018 13:39:35 GMT -5
I don't know about Shooter giving pros their freedom. Most of the artwork produced seemed to conform to a homogeneous house style. Steve Englehart stated on his website that he stopped writing Shadowman because Shooter didn't want writing that deviated from his own style. Depends on your point of view; I haven't seen any squawking from Bob Layton, Barry Windsor Smith or Don Perlin. It's funny you would say that about Layton. According to Shooter, he back stabbed him and joined with the people that took the company away from him. I remember making a comment on his blog that there's two sides to the story and from Shooters hostile response, he still bares a grudge .
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Post by String on Aug 19, 2018 13:41:34 GMT -5
I've been reading Sean Howe's book about Marvel and it's certainly been an eye-opener. Naturally, there's an entire section devoted to 'Trouble' Shooter and Howe details the events that rberman has highlighted here with O'Neil, Byrne, PAD, and such. Even reading this, I'm still on the fence about Shooter. It appears that he was trying to reclaim control of the books from the creative excess that flowered in the 70s and bring it back more in line under editorial control. Given the complicated nature of the fictional universe by that time and the growing number of titles that were being published, this would seem to make sense. I'm biased though in this case because Marvel of the 80s was my introduction to them, it's hard for me to see that Shooter may have been doing egregious things compared to the quality of the books being produced. In the end, I know it basically comes down to He Said vs He Said mentality but still, it's a fascinating look into the behind-the-scenes of the company and business. I've gotten to the excesses of the 90s and I will say, my opinions of McFarlane and Liefeld have degraded quite a bit while my respect for Lee has somewhat improved. Well, I think it went in stages. At the beginning, yes, he was trying to bring order out of chaos and get the books out on time and make the company profitable. Star Wars was saving their bacon (it helped that there was little Star wars merchandise, in the early days). He did a lot to work with young talent and did quite a bit to boost Marvel's line, as a whole. He took some chances on a few ideas (like The Micronauts) and they turned out to be hits. But, he didn't seem to know when to ease up. He wanted hard and fast rules that applied to every situation, rather than recognizing that there was more than one approach to telling a story. His rules were good, for people starting out; but, they could be stifling for experienced creators, wishing to spread their wings. He was in a corporate environment and the knives are always sharp in that kind of culture. The Bullpen had been dysfunctional for years, with egos, substances, and other contributing factors. Shooter was an executive and the one having to make the hard choices, or voice them to everyone else and take the heat. However, he created a lot of heat with an intractable viewpoint and alienated whole chunks of fans with arrogant statements in the press. He became more and more difficult and alienated himself from more and more people, as time went on. I think stress was probably at the center of much of later accounts; but, also a problem of leadership. In my experiences, the best leaders aren't the authoritative ones (ie the screamers and the threateners); it's the ones who set the example and build people up, who inspire them to follow them anywhere. I don't think Shooter ever learned that. Valiant proved to be different, as the stories there were of developing young talent, like David Lapham, and giving the pros their freedom (like Layton, Perlin and BWS). His downfall there came due to differences with the investors as to the company direction. In that case, I tend to think Shooter was arguing on the side of quality, while the investors wanted higher returns, with a lot of expansion and going for the short money. As for poor Mark Gruenwald, accounts told at the time of his death spoke to him being under tremendous stress; but, he was the cheerleader that the Marvel staff needed, to lighten the mood and get through things. There were stories of him enduring Shooter's rages, then orchestrating some fun to get the staff to blow off steam. Many felt that the stress he endured contributed to his eventual heart attack. It certainly didn't help. Through it all, though, he was the sort of positive leader the gang needed: he set the example, he encouraged people, and he built team spirit and everyone would follow him into fire. I think it can be a fine line to balance upon, being the top editor answerable to the executives for business-related decisions (and consequences) while also trying to assuage the egos of your top pro creators. The example to me that stood out in Howe's book (so far) was X-Factor and the return of Jean Grey. Yes, it was a sales stunt but in more than one way apparently. Byrne and Stern hashed out the details of her return based off of Busiek's fan idea between Fantastic Four and Avengers (another crossover = more money). Claremont, of course, was livid for a number of reasons and tried his best to dissuade Shooter of bringing her back but to no avail. However, Shooter reportedly allowed Claremont to 'tweak' a two page flashback sequence in FF in order to appease his star writer. Naturally, that made Byrne mad when he found out. To me, it's almost like a no win scenario, whatever you decide to do (or undo), it's bound to rub someone the wrong way for right or wrong. I have to agree with Shooter's main goal though, put out the best product you can. He had one quote (that I may be paraphrasing) which basically said, "If the comics are good, sales will take care of themselves." I look at the overall body of work from Marvel at that time and I think he succeeded for the most part. The behind-the-scenes issues with getting creators better incentives and deals to produce work, the launch of Epic comics which was the initial steps of creator-owned projects, I think Shooter accomplished quite a bit. However, pride and ego are bound to collide in such a stress-laden work environment and fallouts, disageements, feuds, acrimony are sure to result.
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Post by rberman on Aug 19, 2018 14:22:13 GMT -5
I think it can be a fine line to balance upon, being the top editor answerable to the executives for business-related decisions (and consequences) while also trying to assuage the egos of your top pro creators. The example to me that stood out in Howe's book (so far) was X-Factor and the return of Jean Grey. Yes, it was a sales stunt but in more than one way apparently. Byrne and Stern hashed out the details of her return based off of Busiek's fan idea between Fantastic Four and Avengers (another crossover = more money). Claremont, of course, was livid for a number of reasons and tried his best to dissuade Shooter of bringing her back but to no avail. However, Shooter reportedly allowed Claremont to 'tweak' a two page flashback sequence in FF in order to appease his star writer. Naturally, that made Byrne mad when he found out. To me, it's almost like a no win scenario, whatever you decide to do (or undo), it's bound to rub someone the wrong way for right or wrong. I have to agree with Shooter's main goal though, put out the best product you can. He had one quote (that I may be paraphrasing) which basically said, "If the comics are good, sales will take care of themselves." I look at the overall body of work from Marvel at that time and I think he succeeded for the most part. The behind-the-scenes issues with getting creators better incentives and deals to produce work, the launch of Epic comics which was the initial steps of creator-owned projects, I think Shooter accomplished quite a bit. However, pride and ego are bound to collide in such a stress-laden work environment and fallouts, disageements, feuds, acrimony are sure to result. Claremont and Byrne were/are like John Lennon and Paul McCartney. They did some amazing things when they were able to work together, but they were both strong creative spirits, third generation comic book fans-turned-pro who were heavily invested in the story as an end in itself, not just (as with Kirby) whether he could turn in some pages that would put food on his table and get him offers to turn in some more pages tomorrow. When you care that much about story and have strong ideas what it should be, working with other equally strong spirits will lead to conflict. Pulling Byrne off of X-Men to work on Fantastic Four only slowed the conflagration, because Marvel's universe is so shared that the creators can't help but step on each others' toes. Those creators who are unwilling/unable to sublimate their vision to the will of the whole (or at least the will of the Editor-in-Chief) will be better off at another company, or ideally in their own little creator-owned corner. Alas, "if the comics are good, sales will take care of themselves" was wishful thinking as well. Shooter can't do anything about the seismic shifts in American culture that changed entertainment consumption patterns over the course of the twentieth century. Being a really good Pony Express won't help you when the telegraph line comes to town.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 19, 2018 17:13:22 GMT -5
Claremont, of course, was livid for a number of reasons and tried his best to dissuade Shooter of bringing her back but to no avail. However, Shooter reportedly allowed Claremont to 'tweak' a two page flashback sequence in FF in order to appease his star writer. Naturally, that made Byrne mad when he found out. The tweaking probably amounted to more than two pages. GCD says Claremont scripted 6 pages and Jackson Guice redrew 3.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 19, 2018 17:47:29 GMT -5
I was glad Jean Grey was rescued myself. For awhile so many super-heroines were thrown out in the trash it felt to me, and sometimes even paraded around as dead bodies on covers to help sales or something, yuck! I was cool with Phoenix having to die, it was logical and right (and phoenixes rise from ashes)... and okay, Elektra too, she was possibly even less innocent and more compromised than the corrupted by black corsets Jean Grey. But what they did with Spider-Woman, Supergirl, Ms. Marvel (for awhile), Watchmen's Silk Spectre (up to where there's no male hero to stop it), hearing/reading about what was done to Batgirl... it started to get personal. For rescuing Jean from the garbage can I will always be thankful to Kurt Busiek and John Byrne, and then of course someone had to mess with that, and put Phoenix back onto the character and repeat the whole thing which others had worked at fixing so nicely. "Essential to character development" that the female characters get destroyed? Over and over? Claremont has done more to drag through the dirt what was a high point in comics with the original Phoenix saga by trying to exploit it and milk it. So people shouldn't get mad at someone trying to salvage a character, a broken toy, which they had loved from the '60s before either of them had the chance to work on the comics themselves. It made a lot more sense and was far classier that Madelyne Pryor quick marriage to Cyclops, Kitty or others wearing a Dark Phoenix costume in various stories (even Professor X wore it), and all these future world offspring like Rachel/Phoenix Jr. which got to be ridiculous and totally confused. The Phoenix being an entity that took a person's shape was perfect, and Hidden Years even added some depth to that, but they went and merged Jean and Phoenix anyway so Claremont 'won' again, had it his way. Dark/kinky/decadent/negative vs. positive/subtle/adding-not-subtracting is how I see it. And Shooter in the middle. There were lots of comics I went on to not buy that were written by Chris Claremont, his return to the X-Men circa 2000 I have no interest in seeing though I have a lot of the comics just before that. There were lots more by John Byrne I did buy and am still buying. Claremont did a great run on Spider-Woman, I cared about Jessica Drew, then someone had to destroy/erase that, why? Where was Shooter for that kind of thing? I just figured they didn't want female readers anymore and I bet the number of female names in the letters page really started dropping. If they'd killed off and destroyed as high a percentage of the male super characters, or even the black ones, there'd have been a lot of noise.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 19, 2018 20:06:08 GMT -5
I'm glad that times have changed and there are more and more female friendly comics.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Aug 19, 2018 20:18:29 GMT -5
and Magnus had kind of run its course, by Unity. gasp.. sputter...choke! (In other words, I wholeheartedly disagree) Shooter was an amazing visionary, but he also only tended to believe in his own vision. While no one tells horror stories from the Valiant Era, Shooter (by his own admission) was throwing out and rewriting other people's scripts at deadline when he saw something he didn't like. Maybe they didn't complain because he was the one doing the extra work instead of calling them out and making them redo it?
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 19, 2018 20:28:05 GMT -5
It's a shame that Shooters time ended in the Valiant company, there were people feeling that those books were reminiscent of Marvel in the 60's. It had a magical feel to them.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 19, 2018 22:37:20 GMT -5
As I say, I haven't read many creators attacking Shooter at Valiant, as most seem fixated on the Marvel period; but, I don't follow anybody's own site/blog. I tend to read more print interviews and haven't seen much discussion og Valiant, in that arena (beyond contemporary articles about the company and specific titles, in places like Wizard, CBG and The Comics Journal.
Yeah, I might be confusing Conway with Shooter, as far as Englehart. I do know their story philosophies are different.
I still think Shooter gets a bit too much blame, though I think he earned plenty, especially the bad will over the Kirby situation, slotting himself into Secret Wars when the toy company wanted to package the comic with the toys, the rigid storytelling rules, etc. I also think he spends way more time spin doctoring his reign versus taking responsibility for his decisions and accepting valid criticism.
I think he was a better writer than an editor, and a better editor than an executive. I think Valiant was where he actually conceived and executed a vision the most, though you could see some of the inspiration in the New Universe.
And hey, Shax, sorry buddy; but, I was getting bored with Magnus, by Unity. I started culling the heard after that and after Shooter was gone. I dropped Archer & Armstrong after BWS left, stuck with XO Manowar for a while, but had dropped most of the line by the mid-90s; all before the sale to Acclaim.
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Post by berkley on Aug 19, 2018 23:34:49 GMT -5
I always say, he could have been a solid editor/writer - at DC. I really think his sensibilities and style would have been a better fit for that company and its iconic characters, although I suppose his rigid rules and often heavy-handed interference would have eventually caused problems wherever he was. For me, even the stuff I liked well enough at the time - basically his early Avengers run up to the Korvac story - hasn't aged well, though the Perez artwork still made for several classic issues. And the less said about his second run the better, in my book.
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