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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 18, 2018 9:54:39 GMT -5
I didn't say ASM was intrinsically a soap opera. I said that soap opera elements were an intrinsic part of what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man. [...] It wants to pull the reader's heartstrings, but it does so cheaply, by layering on the melodrama and fake poignancy with a trowel. Intrinsic: "belonging to the subject in its very existence". Saying that being a soap opera is an intrinsic part of something, and saying that something is intrinsically a soap opera, are the same thing. In both cases, you're saying that those elements that made Spider-Man a soap opera, belong to Spider-Man in its very existence, which means that there's nothing left in the character, once you take those elements out. So the problem isn't really that it tries to be manipulative, but that it does so "cheaply". Well, that's your opinion, but when I think that a writer is cheaply trying to "pull my strings", I don't label his work as a "reasonably well written comic", just a question of internal coherence, I guess. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 18, 2018 12:21:14 GMT -5
I didn't say ASM was intrinsically a soap opera. I said that soap opera elements were an intrinsic part of what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man. [...] It wants to pull the reader's heartstrings, but it does so cheaply, by layering on the melodrama and fake poignancy with a trowel. Intrinsic: "belonging to the subject in its very existence". Saying that being a soap opera is an intrinsic part of something, and saying that something is intrinsically a soap opera, are the same thing. In both cases, you're saying that those elements that made Spider-Man a soap opera, belong to Spider-Man in its very existence, which means that there's nothing left in the character, once you take those elements out. So the problem isn't really that it tries to be manipulative, but that it does so "cheaply". Well, that's your opinion, but when I think that a writer is cheaply trying to "pull my strings", I don't label his work as a "reasonably well written comic", just a question of internal coherence, I guess. Well, maybe "fundamental" would be a better word, then. What I was trying to say was that part of Spider-Man is intrinsically a soap opera. That is to say, soap opera is an important part of Spider-Man, but it's obviously not all that Spider-Man is. But then, actually, I think you know exactly what I'm saying and you're just choosing to be difficult for some reason, which is...weird. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 18, 2018 13:35:18 GMT -5
[...] soap opera is an important part of Spider-Man, but it's obviously not all that Spider-Man is. But then, actually, I think you know exactly what I'm saying and you're just choosing to be difficult for some reason, which is...weird. I honestly wasn't sure what it was you meant; now this statement, I can agree with. That said, when have you known me to be easy? |
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Post by brutalis on Jan 18, 2018 15:39:11 GMT -5
Remember that polite argumentation is the fermentation of life!  |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 20, 2018 20:59:21 GMT -5
Counterpoint: I thought ASM was fairly weak all through the '70s. How so? The decade began with powerful, landmark stories such as: 1.The death and aftermath of Captain Stacy--along with Peter's intensifying guilt. 2.The Harry Osborn drug plot, coupled with Norman's return as the Goblin and his breakdown. Moving ahead.... 3.A number of great Doctor Octopus stories involving Aunt May. 4.Obviously, the deaths of Osborn & Gwen, and the aftermath. 5.The introduction of the Punisher and Jackal, and with the Jackal, the original Clone storyline--and its bitter resolution to the idea of Peter ever having a second chance with Gwen. 6.The Morbius & the Man Wolf arcs (very inventive spins on vampirism and lycanthropy, respectively). 7.The entire deranged Harry/2nd Goblin arc. 8.Peter--hard luck as ever--fails to graduate college. Spider-Man was already popular going into the 70s, but the title truly became one of the few "must read" titles of the 70s, all to follow the highs and numerous emotional lows of the hero. He was unique among superhero characters, and it was in this period that cemented his status as the drama-battered hereo others have been trying to copy (in one way or another) ever since. Andru had an occasional great inker in John Romita, who took the gangly edge from Andru's often unappealing figures. I might be a little harsh on '70s Spidey. You're right, I can certainly read all of the stories you listed and be happily entertained. But on the other hand - All of the above come off as just a little too serious or a little too goofyball. The strength of the Romita run (one of my favorite runs of superhero comics) and the Ditko run (maybe my single favorite run of superhero comics) is that they blended comedy and tragedy. '70s Spidey felt either dead serious (Death of Gwen Stacy) or pure cheeseball (Aunt May marries Doc Oc so he can own an island with a nuclear power plant or something? I can't remember that right...) Although the clone saga hit a pretty good balance between the two. And I can't rate Conway up with the best of the Marvel writers - while Monech, Gerber, Englehart, Starlin and McGregor were doing groundbreaking work both structurally and thematically - Conway was just kind of plugging away in the traditional Marvel style. And as much as I love Andru as a cartoonist and a humor artist, I always thought he was kind of wasted at Marvel (and in the Action/Adventure/Superhero genre in general.) I do really enjoy a lot of Spidey in that time period, and it's the stuff I grew up with so I'll always have a nostalgic love for the Tarantula and Razorback and Hammerhead. (And Stegron. Freaking loooooove Stegron.) Taken on it's own merits '70s Spidey is fine. But it doesn't quite compare with the Silver Age issues that came before it or the best of the rest of Marvel's bronze age. |
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Post by Confessor on Jan 21, 2018 7:36:40 GMT -5
I do really enjoy a lot of Spidey in that time period, and it's the stuff I grew up with so I'll always have a nostalgic love for the Tarantula and Razorback and Hammerhead. (And Stegron. Freaking loooooove Stegron.) Taken on it's own merits '70s Spidey is fine. But it doesn't quite compare with the Silver Age issues that came before it or the best of the rest of Marvel's bronze age. I agree that '70s Spider-Man never quite reached the consistent highs of the Silver Age -- and honestly, given how excellent Ditko and Romita's runs were, how could it? But I disagree about its worth, when compared to the rest of 70s Marvel. Amazing Spider-Man was still Marvel's most consistently high quality comic during the '70s, I believe. By quite a long way. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 21, 2018 9:27:41 GMT -5
I do really enjoy a lot of Spidey in that time period, and it's the stuff I grew up with so I'll always have a nostalgic love for the Tarantula and Razorback and Hammerhead. (And Stegron. Freaking loooooove Stegron.) Taken on it's own merits '70s Spidey is fine. But it doesn't quite compare with the Silver Age issues that came before it or the best of the rest of Marvel's bronze age. I agree that '70s Spider-Man never quite reached the consistent highs of the Silver Age -- and honestly, given how excellent Ditko and Romita's runs were, how could it? But I disagree about its worth, when compared to the rest of 70s Marvel. Amazing Spider-Man was still Marvel's most consistently high quality comic during the '70s, I believe. By quite a long way. Better than Star Wars? |
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Post by spoon on Jan 21, 2018 9:56:16 GMT -5
There have been some who considered # 123 as the 'third part' of the story, because it opens by noting the funerals of Gwen and Norman, and, with Spider-Man considered the prime suspect in the murder, that drives Jonah to hire Luke Cage to bring him in. That's interesting, but myself, I don't consider ASM #123 to be part of the Death of Gwen Stacy. Sure, it deals with the fall out from Norman and Gwen's death, but that's just part and parcel of serial superhero comics -- especially one as soap opera-like as Spider-Man. The two-part Death of Gwen Stacy arc is clearly done with Norman being impaled on his own glider at the end of #122, and, just as importantly, Mary Jane stopping by Peter's pad to console him (a real turning point in their relationship). The real focus of ASM #123, on the other hand, is Spidey's clash with Luke Cage. Spidey has problems with the police for several years after this, as a result of Norman's death. Well, to be fair, Spidey had been hounded on and off by the police since the Lee/Ditko era. Well, I'm one of those people who would through ASM #123 in as a third-part. It's clearly the epilogue/aftermath, but IIRC it deals with Peter's grief. If I was in charge of picking issues to put in a TPB, I'd want #123 to go with #121-122. |
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Post by spoon on Jan 21, 2018 10:06:34 GMT -5
I think one of the strengths of Romita's run (and to a lesser extent, Ditko's run) is the serial storytelling. Rather than focusing on individual issues, I'd recommended using the Essential or Omnibus series to read the run as whole.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 21, 2018 10:24:49 GMT -5
I agree that '70s Spider-Man never quite reached the consistent highs of the Silver Age -- and honestly, given how excellent Ditko and Romita's runs were, how could it? But I disagree about its worth, when compared to the rest of 70s Marvel. Amazing Spider-Man was still Marvel's most consistently high quality comic during the '70s, I believe. By quite a long way. Better than Star Wars? Lol...maybe. Marvel's SW didn't really hit its purple patch until the 80s. That said, I don't think SW really counts as a proper Marvel Bronze Age comic because it was a licensed property. I was really thinking of 70s comics featuring Marvel originated characters. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 21, 2018 15:48:53 GMT -5
Lol...maybe. Marvel's SW didn't really hit its purple patch until the 80s. That said, I don't think SW really counts as a proper Marvel Bronze Age comic because it was a licensed property. I was really thinking of 70s comics featuring Marvel originated characters. Hmm. That would eliminate Tomb of Dracula, my # 1 go-to for undeniable bronze age greatness. X-men? Howard the Duck? Omega? Jungle Action? Master of Kung-Fu? The Eternals? Warlock? Or is in not fair to compare a whole decade of Spidey to short run series. Although ASM had the most Stegron. I can't discount that. |
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Post by Confessor on Jan 21, 2018 18:49:33 GMT -5
Lol...maybe. Marvel's SW didn't really hit its purple patch until the 80s. That said, I don't think SW really counts as a proper Marvel Bronze Age comic because it was a licensed property. I was really thinking of 70s comics featuring Marvel originated characters. X-men? Howard the Duck? Omega? Jungle Action? Master of Kung-Fu? The Eternals? Warlock? Or is in not fair to compare a whole decade of Spidey to short run series. Well, I'm unfamiliar with Omega, Jungle Action and the Eternals, but as for the rest, yep...ASM in the 70s is definitely superior to any of those, in my own opinion. Although ASM had the most Stegron. I can't discount that. Yeah, I'm not really understanding why this is a hard sell for you. In terms of "Stegron action" alone, 70s ASM surely beats all comers? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 21, 2018 18:52:27 GMT -5
Everyone has " their " Spider-man run.
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Post by TheQuestion on Jan 22, 2018 22:13:08 GMT -5
Reading this thread got me to finally read the "Death of Jean DeWolff" story... I can't I waited this long! Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 23, 2018 7:46:41 GMT -5
Probably my favorite non-Stegron related Spidey book from the '70s  |
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