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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 16, 2018 22:40:21 GMT -5
I just re-read ASM #148, 149 for fun and it got me thinking what people here thought of the entire Gwen Stacy/Spider-Man clone story with the Jackal. I am curious if anyone here read it as it came out (or closer to that time) and how they felt about it now versus then.
I initially read the run a good 8-10 years ago and liked it. I thought it was a little goofy, but the characters and covers that came with it were great. Punisher, Jackal, Tarantula...and it was punctuated with a nice Green Goblin storyline midway between it all as well as a Scorpion arc for good measure, two of my favourite villains of all-time. Having just re-read the two issues that sort of finish off the arc, I feel similar. It is good but definitely a bit weird, when you consider Miles Warren's odd obsession with Gwen. I also enjoy this arc because of what it brought about later in Spectacular Spider-Man, another series I grew up reading. In particular, the Carrion story arc was one that I enjoyed again because the character was interesting looking and seemed a legitimate threat to Parker/Spider-Man.
Wondering what people here think. A good overall run? Average? Or bad?
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 16, 2018 22:45:30 GMT -5
Average at best. Ross Andru was a step down from Romita and Kane. And after the Death of Gwen Stacy it all seemed too frivolous.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 16, 2018 22:59:40 GMT -5
I always liked Andru's art. The covers were stellar...pretty sure Kane and Romita did most during the stretch. I've always felt that Andru to be a very underrated and underappreciated artist. He had some great interior work!
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Post by berkley on Feb 16, 2018 23:18:31 GMT -5
I hadn't been reading comics much for most of that run but came back to the series I think with #148, going by the covers, so I only caught the tail-end of the span you're talking about - not enough to have an opinion one way or the other. I was never a big fan of Gerry Conway's writing but OTOH, he did come up with the iconic Death of Gwen Stacey story, so maybe he was better on Spider-Man than on other series? I found the Ross Andru artwork solid enough, but unspectacular. It wasn't something that made me look forward to the next issue with great anticipation.
How about the era immediately afterwards? Looking at the GCD gallery, I think I kept with it all the Len Wein run and was still reading sporadically over the next couple years as well. I liked it well enough, but it wasn't anywhere near being one of my top series.
I always wondered if the lower page count of the mid-70s hindered artists who were used to having more space to work with, or if it was just something in my own attitude. The page count had dropped from 20 to 17 during the few years I had stopped reading comics regularly in the early 70s and it bothered me a lot at the time.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 17, 2018 0:09:50 GMT -5
It's my favorite Spidey run after the classic Lee-Ditko stuff (especially if you factor in the simultaneously published Giant-Size Spider-Man), and Andru is my second favorite Spidey artist after Sturdy Steve. His staging and composition is fantastic, his characters' facial expressions (though exaggerated) and body language are first rate, and his backgrounds were the best of the decade.
Cei-U! I summon The Grizzly, Cyclone, and The Mindworm!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 0:21:15 GMT -5
What Cei-U! said ... I backed him up 100%!
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 17, 2018 1:36:33 GMT -5
Welll.... I really like Andru when he's not doing superheroes. For all his effacy at orienting figures in a real world with depth and weight, his actual figure drawing got really wonky. I DO quite like the Giant Size Spider-Man stories that ran concurrent. (Damn site better'n what was happening in Marvel Team-Up proper, I'll tell you that for free.)
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,220
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Post by Confessor on Feb 17, 2018 2:58:47 GMT -5
I'm another big Andru fan -- after Ditko and Romita, he's probably my favourite Spidey artist. The whole period the pinkfloydsound17 is talking about is very, very good IMO. Wonderful Bronze Age comics and the Gwen Stacy clone storyline is one of my absolute favourites.
Also, yay the Mindworm, my #1 D-List Spider-Man villain.
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 17, 2018 3:56:24 GMT -5
Good. Introduction of Punisher, Harry Osborn becoming Green Goblin, the Clone Saga.
Some forgettable issues and the Tarantula keep it from being one of the great eras.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 17, 2018 6:52:41 GMT -5
Amazing Spider-Man #129-150: Good, Bad or Average? Very good, with some great here and there. Readers and/or comic historians should remember that this period had the unenviable job of following one of the most series-changing arcs ever published with the deaths of Gwen Stacy/Norman Osborn and the immediate aftermath of Spider-Man accused of murder. Most comic writers/editors rarely had the ability to follow such an atomic blast of creativity/drama which consistently played into the greatest strengths of a concept. ASM #129-150 took the challenge and succeeded more often than not by not carrying on the effects of an event, unlike so many modern age "event" comics of the past 25 years, but accomplished his in by creating two, distinct plotlines in the Jackal/clone story, and Harry as the second Green Goblin. The Warren/Jackal arc made sense in that we see how the Stacy tragedy touched/angered someone instead of always seeing the hatred of Spider-Man from the Jameson perspective (which was last dealt with in a direct way in ASM #123 with Luke Cage). To see the kindly Warren (as originally introduced) sink into a creepy, obsessive who--at the heart of it all--was a study of the doomed mindset of those unwilling to accept death (as Parker was forced to at the end of the clone story-- in a cemetery, no less), and how immoral one would become when they refused to let go. Hiring the Punisher, playing psychological torture against Parker was an inventive way to move the title forward. Unlike Jameson using very 1950s kinds of weaponized tech like the Spider-Slayer, the Jackal contracting the Punisher posed a dark threat with roots readers would find familiar in the very violent early 1970s, particularly in the United States, where gun violence was too often the "answer" for almost everything. This first attack forced the hero to deal with realistic threats that no amount of super-heroics was going to solve. Even the original clone plot had some roots in reality (the possibility of cloning was a big topic in this period), with Spider-Man getting his own "back from the dead" horror once associated with characters like Captain America (all of the Bucky imposters/robots/androids, et al.). Aside from the Jackal's schemes, the continued fall of Harry Osborn from drug addict to filling his father's shoes felt like a natural development. After all, its not a stretch to think a man with a drug-addled personality coupled with what he thought was his father's murder...then learning the alleged murderer was his best friend would become an unhinged psychopath seeking revenge exactly as his father would. Instead of merely being a second Goblin "in name only", Harry's longtime friendship with Parker dashed to pieces (at that time) was solid drama, and brought a natural end to the Goblin saga as it should have been...if Marvel had the guts to leave it alone at that point.....but did not. Through it all we were treated to the return of Liz Allan, not seen since her high school graduation (ASM #28). Although her being the stepsister of the Molten Man felt a bit soap-opera convenient, Allan's then-brief return not only addressed the "whatever became of" question, but in Spider-Man tradition of the era, illustrated that just about everyone in the Spider-verse had lost their innocence. There were other storylines in this period, but I feel ASM #129-150 successfully built on all that ASM #121/122 dropped on the title. Too bad that kind of strong run did not last with any consistency after #150.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Feb 17, 2018 6:53:05 GMT -5
Good. Lots of good stories in there. And Andru is one of my favorite Spidey artists.
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 17, 2018 8:57:39 GMT -5
I would add the only down side to this period was Ross Andru. Romita (and Kane to a lesser degree)defined Spider-Man's world like no other and to select Andru to follow as the next main artist was a very odd, jarring decision. Thankfully, the stories were solid, which were the most engaging part of this period.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 17, 2018 9:23:10 GMT -5
Well I am in the minority it seems. But still not a big fan of Andru's SM. The pics pinkfloyd posted shows why. I just found his poses very awkward. I understand he was going for a Ditkoesque feel, but it didn't work for me. His artwork did not have the same feel for me as those that came before. Vanilla and Chocolate and all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 10:38:07 GMT -5
I loved Conway & Andru's run. 1st Punisher. 1st Tarantula. 1st Harry as the Goblin. The Jackal & the Gwen clone. Plus other villains like the Molten Man, Mysterio, Scorpion, Grizzly. Doc Ock & Aunt May almost get married.
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Post by String on Feb 17, 2018 11:55:11 GMT -5
I read #143-150 for the first time a few months back and thought it was quite good. The psychological drama being displayed, from Warren's creepy obsession with Gwen to Peter's questioning of what may be real, Conway handled it all rather well. It's certainly an interesting way to follow up on such a (in)famous moment in the book that had just occurred recently. (Although I recall reading somewhere that Conway did this story because Lee mentioned to him in passing one day, 'Why not bring Gwen back' or something along those lines perhaps?)
Jackal's costume is also one of the more disturbing ones that I've seen, maybe due in part to it's simplistic feral nature combined with Warren's insanity.
As for Andru, I loved his work. It's evocative in ways of Romita so I suppose one can count on maintaining a certain look on the book for readers but his layouts, action scenes, and key moments were all very good.
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