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Post by nero9000 on Mar 1, 2018 8:10:57 GMT -5
Hoo boy, you guys are so jaded! As if most comics were anything else but an excuse to get heroes and villains to fight. If you're gonna complain about it being a cash-grab, you could say the same for, say, The Avengers or JLA. Heck, any superhero comics. To even compare this one to Contest of Champions...
I guess I'm biased, because this story was my introduction to the MU, but I don't see how a comic book fan wouldn't be all over the idea of seeing all the big heroes and villains together in a huge slugfest. Commercialism aside, surely a story like this just HAD to happen?
The plot isn't perfect, but it serves its purpose. What makes this series one of the great Marvel stories is an absolutely brilliant use of the characters. Not only in creative action scenes (someone mentioned 150 billion tons and an angry Hulk), but in unique interaction between the different characters. At the time many of them had barely even met each other, so it was interesting seeing all the dynamics that emerged when they were all put together. Between all the action there's great development for many of the characters. Even tiny bits of dialogue could reveal a lot.
The Beyonder was an absolute lamo, admittedly. And a lot of major characters, especially on the villain side, are really handled poorly. This was the end for the Absorbing-Man as a major villain, and legitimate threats like Klaw, Ultron and Kang are made to look like absolute buffoons or jobbers. In fact, I think Kang should have been the big bad in this story instead of The Beyonder. He has the technology to set up something like Battleworld, and he's been known to play some games with the heroes now and then, so it would have made sense. He had a ready-made backstory, as he actually started his conquering career after being inspired from seeing the Marvel heroes on the telly! Dude is just a fanboy at heart.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 1, 2018 8:16:45 GMT -5
Ok, I can see your point... but Secret Wars was a much, much better story. Crisis was IMPORTANT to CONTINUITY and really did give a sense of monumentous scope, while Perez' art in Crisis really doesn't have an equal in comics. I see why Crisis is fondly remembered. But the story was the most basic "Good Guys vs. Bad Guy who's motivation is BWAHAHAHA Evil" plot possible and the narrative beats were a mishmash of nonsense where things... just.... happened. Secret Wars didn't have a thru-plot the way Crisis did* but it had characters you could care about (sans prior reading) with discernable motivations that mattered to the narrative, a sense of fun/humor, and great visual beats - "Beneath 150 Billion Tons Stands the Hulk - And He's Not Happy!" Somebody around here ought to do an issue-by-issue on Crisis. I might get around to it myself, but there are a few other topics I plan to cover first. I've never read it, or most of DC. Have some plans to do a review thread of reading DC stuff for the first time, starting from Crisis. I'm game for a Crisis book club if people are interested. |
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Post by rberman on Mar 1, 2018 8:21:51 GMT -5
Hoo boy, you guys are so jaded! As if most comics were anything else but an excuse to get heroes and villains to fight. To even compare this one to Contest of Champions... I guess I'm biased, because this story was my introduction to the MU, but I don't see how a comic book fan wouldn't be all over the idea of seeing all the big heroes and villains together in a huge slugfest. Commercialism aside, surely a story like this just HAD to happen? The plot isn't perfect, but it serves its purpose. What makes this series one of the great Marvel stories is an absolutely brilliant use of the characters. Not only in creative action scenes (someone mentioned 150 billion tons and an angry Hulk), but in unique interaction between the different characters. At the time many of them had barely even met each other, so it was interesting seeing all the dynamics that emerged when they were all put together. Between all the action there's great development for many of the characters. Even tiny bits of dialogue could reveal a lot. The Beyonder was an absolute lamo, admittedly. And a lot of major characters, especially on the villain side, are really handled poorly. This was the end for the Absorbing-Man as a major villain, and legitimate threats like Klaw, Ultron and Kang are made to look like absolute buffoons or jobbers. In fact, I think Kang should have been the big bad in this story instead of The Beyonder. He has the technology to set up something like Battleworld, and he's been known to play some games with the heroes now and then, so it would have made sense. He had a ready-made backstory, as he actually started his conquering career after being inspired from seeing the Marvel heroes on the telly! Dude is just a fanboy at heart. Welcome to the forum! I would rate the story as "not bad" more than "must read." Doom's plot thread (the presence of Galactus and Beyonder is an opportunity, not a problem) made total sense for him. So did Galactus' thread, which IIRC was "As long as I am stuck here, I will eat this planet." Klaw fans might have been annoyed seeing him turned into a dimwit who spoke in what psychologists call clang ("Soup... ooop.. ooop..."), but it did give him a distinct personality besides the usual villain's "I am irritable and will fight you" story. Probably the best thing to come out of the series was pushing Magneto further into the good-guy camp, which was a long journey rather than an instantaneous epiphany like some villains get. I also genuinely enjoyed the punchline that Doom was defeated by his own insecurities about how the heroes always manage to win. So yeah, Secret Wars I was alright. Secret Wars II on the other hand I unabashedly despise, not only for its hackneyed "idiot-god" storyline and terrible art, but also how it ushered in the terrible era of company-wide crossover events that have been suckering fanboys completists ever since. |
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Post by rberman on Mar 1, 2018 8:23:07 GMT -5
Somebody around here ought to do an issue-by-issue on Crisis. I might get around to it myself, but there are a few other topics I plan to cover first. I've never read it, or most of DC. Have some plans to do a review thread of reading DC stuff for the first time, starting from Crisis. I'm game for a Crisis book club if people are interested. Do it! Make a thread and talk about one issue at a time sequentially. If you haven't read much DC then you won't know the hefty backstory on which the series depends, but there are enough knowledgeable people around here to fill in the gaps as you go. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Mar 1, 2018 8:27:57 GMT -5
Secret Wars is no more and no less than the realization of every great story every kid with a bunch of action figures ever enacted. If Secret Wars had been published in 1965, it would be universally lauded as a classic today, but it came about in an age when comic book fandom had matured and wasn't looking for books written to the inner adolescent anymore. So, if you're looking for simple fun and big imagination, it's got it. And if you're looking for depth, intelligence, consistency, or originality, ummm...DC's got this Crisis on Infinite Earths thing you might want to check out instead.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Mar 1, 2018 8:40:18 GMT -5
I liked it. Yes, it is a toy tie in but the key to reading it is not to take it seriously. It is not a ground breaking story, but rather an all out battle between the four groups mentioned earlier. Plus, we got this from it....you can't tell me that the symbiote suit doesn't change and elevate a new interest in Spidey for years to come!  ^Game changer right there! Plus. we also get the best Dr. Doom cover of all time!  It was overall a combination of very very good artwork, a good story and a great marketing play. So overall, for me, it works and I recommend reading it. Just have fun while doing so:) |
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 1, 2018 8:58:02 GMT -5
Ok, I can see your point... but Secret Wars was a much, much better story. Crisis was IMPORTANT to CONTINUITY and really did give a sense of monumentous scope, while Perez' art in Crisis really doesn't have an equal in comics. I see why Crisis is fondly remembered. But the story was the most basic "Good Guys vs. Bad Guy who's motivation is BWAHAHAHA Evil" plot possible and the narrative beats were a mishmash of nonsense where things... just.... happened. Secret Wars didn't have a thru-plot the way Crisis did* but it had characters you could care about (sans prior reading) with discernable motivations that mattered to the narrative, a sense of fun/humor, and great visual beats - "Beneath 150 Billion Tons Stands the Hulk - And He's Not Happy!" Somebody around here ought to do an issue-by-issue on Crisis. I might get around to it myself, but there are a few other topics I plan to cover first. You definitely don't want it to be me. By the time I was done, you'd hate Crisis, me, or both. Cei-U! I summon the fair warning! |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Mar 1, 2018 9:18:34 GMT -5
So yeah, Secret Wars I was alright. Secret Wars II on the other hand I unabashedly despise, not only for its hackneyed "idiot-god" storyline and terrible art, but also how it ushered in the terrible era of company-wide crossover events that have been suckering fanboys completists ever since. You hit the nail on the head. For all its many flaws, I can still enjoy Secret Wars I because it was big dumb fun, and for the most part, unintrusive to the various titles at the time. I think they handled it cleverly and very well as far as big events go--the heroes simply stepped into a mysterious portal at the end of an issue and you were encouraged to find out what happened in the new series. By the next issue, the heroes were right back into their various story-lines. Secret Wars II was the real beginning of what has become the event plague: forced editorial mandates that derail the plans of creative teams and prevent most titles from building momentum and keeping it. The only event that I've liked since was Starlin's Infinity series in the early 90's, but even then I found the tie-in's annoying. Beyond it being an awesome story-line, the fact that I was already reading Silver Surfer (which is where Thanos returned and the story took off) made it easy for me as a reader. |
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 1, 2018 9:35:00 GMT -5
Hoo boy, you guys are so jaded! As if most comics were anything else but an excuse to get heroes and villains to fight. To even compare this one to Contest of Champions... I guess I'm biased, because this story was my introduction to the MU, but I don't see how a comic book fan wouldn't be all over the idea of seeing all the big heroes and villains together in a huge slugfest. Commercialism aside, surely a story like this just HAD to happen? The plot isn't perfect, but it serves its purpose. What makes this series one of the great Marvel stories is an absolutely brilliant use of the characters. Not only in creative action scenes (someone mentioned 150 billion tons and an angry Hulk), but in unique interaction between the different characters. At the time many of them had barely even met each other, so it was interesting seeing all the dynamics that emerged when they were all put together. Between all the action there's great development for many of the characters. Even tiny bits of dialogue could reveal a lot. The Beyonder was an absolute lamo, admittedly. And a lot of major characters, especially on the villain side, are really handled poorly. This was the end for the Absorbing-Man as a major villain, and legitimate threats like Klaw, Ultron and Kang are made to look like absolute buffoons or jobbers. In fact, I think Kang should have been the big bad in this story instead of The Beyonder. He has the technology to set up something like Battleworld, and he's been known to play some games with the heroes now and then, so it would have made sense. He had a ready-made backstory, as he actually started his conquering career after being inspired from seeing the Marvel heroes on the telly! Dude is just a fanboy at heart. Welcome to the forum! I would rate the story as "not bad" more than "must read." Doom's plot thread (the presence of Galactus and Beyonder is an opportunity, not a problem) made total sense for him. So did Galactus' thread, which IIRC was "As long as I am stuck here, I will eat this planet." Klaw fans might have been annoyed seeing him turned into a dimwit who spoke in what psychologists call clang ("Soup... ooop.. ooop..."), but it did give him a distinct personality besides the usual villain's "I am irritable and will fight you" story. Probably the best thing to come out of the series was pushing Magneto further into the good-guy camp, which was a long journey rather than an instantaneous epiphany like some villains get. I also genuinely enjoyed the punchline that Doom was defeated by his own insecurities about how the heroes always manage to win. So yeah, Secret Wars I was alright. Secret Wars II on the other hand I unabashedly despise, not only for its hackneyed "idiot-god" storyline and terrible art, but also how it ushered in the terrible era of company-wide crossover events that have been suckering fanboys completists ever since. Klaw already had a distinct personality from his first appearance. He was like a colonial overlord, and a particularly irredeemable and nasty character. I remember when I was reading Silver Age Marvel in order at being shocked over what a nasty guy he was. Until then most of the villains had been over the top conquerors or the "I'll get you!" types, but this guy starts off by slaughtering an entire village of innocent people. Not cool, Ulysses! Ok, later on he regressed into a more generic bad guy, but the new goofball gimmick certainly didn't do him any favors. Secret Wars I and II are prime examples on how to do an event right and wrong. 1 was pretty self-contained, even if its effects were felt afterwards in the titles. SW2 was an absolute travesty that permeated every title for months, and forced ridiculous plot twists into already made stories that completely diluted them. And it wasn't even a fun action romp! Just a cosmic David Hasselhoff in a glam outfit being a moron. I've never read it, or most of DC. Have some plans to do a review thread of reading DC stuff for the first time, starting from Crisis. I'm game for a Crisis book club if people are interested. Do it! Make a thread and talk about one issue at a time sequentially. If you haven't read much DC then you won't know the hefty backstory on which the series depends, but there are enough knowledgeable people around here to fill in the gaps as you go. Ok, I'll start one in the near future, if I can get others to participate, too. Not worried about the backstory aspect. I got into Marvel through Secret Wars, after all.  Secret Wars is no more and no less than the realization of every great story every kid with a bunch of action figures ever enacted. If Secret Wars had been published in 1965, it would be universally lauded as a classic today, but it came about in an age when comic book fandom had matured and wasn't looking for books written to the inner adolescent anymore. So, if you're looking for simple fun and big imagination, it's got it. And if you're looking for depth, intelligence, consistency, or originality, ummm...DC's got this Crisis on Infinite Earths thing you might want to check out instead. But before Secret Wars they didn't have Marvel figures yet, or did they? Does that man every kid playing with their superhero toys is just ripping off Secret Wars?  Somebody around here ought to do an issue-by-issue on Crisis. I might get around to it myself, but there are a few other topics I plan to cover first. You definitely don't want it to be me. By the time I was done, you'd hate Crisis, me, or both. Cei-U! I summon the fair warning! Nothing wrong with a little bit of hating! Roasting the scrap out of something makes for a lot more interesting review than positive ones, TBH. |
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Post by The Captain on Mar 1, 2018 9:45:22 GMT -5
I read this for the first time late last year and my takeaway was that if I'd read this when it came out, when I was 12, it would have been awesome to see the heroes fighting each other and having a bunch of cool villains doing bad guy stuff, but as a 44 year-old who has read a lot of comics in the past three-and-a-half decades, it was a by-the-numbers exercise designed to sell some toys and while it wasn't bad necessarily, it just didn't light my fire the way it might have when I was younger.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Mar 1, 2018 9:58:08 GMT -5
Secret Wars is no more and no less than the realization of every great story every kid with a bunch of action figures ever enacted. If Secret Wars had been published in 1965, it would be universally lauded as a classic today, but it came about in an age when comic book fandom had matured and wasn't looking for books written to the inner adolescent anymore. So, if you're looking for simple fun and big imagination, it's got it. And if you're looking for depth, intelligence, consistency, or originality, ummm...DC's got this Crisis on Infinite Earths thing you might want to check out instead. But before Secret Wars they didn't have Marvel figures yet, or did they? Of course they did!    |
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Post by rberman on Mar 1, 2018 10:01:49 GMT -5
I read this for the first time late last year and my takeaway was that if I'd read this when it came out, when I was 12, it would have been awesome to see the heroes fighting each other and having a bunch of cool villains doing bad guy stuff, but as a 44 year-old who has read a lot of comics in the past three-and-a-half decades, it was a by-the-numbers exercise designed to sell some toys and while it wasn't bad necessarily, it just didn't light my fire the way it might have when I was younger. I was 13 when Secret Wars came out, and I thought it was OK at the time, but not as good as the other books (X-Men, FF, Alpha Flight, Legion of Super-Heroes, Avengers) I was reading at the time. |
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Post by rberman on Mar 1, 2018 10:22:42 GMT -5
Do it! Make a thread and talk about one issue at a time sequentially. If you haven't read much DC then you won't know the hefty backstory on which the series depends, but there are enough knowledgeable people around here to fill in the gaps as you go. Ok, I'll start one in the near future, if I can get others to participate, too. Not worried about the backstory aspect. I got into Marvel through Secret Wars, after all. I am sure people will jump in. Cei-U is already sharpening his Adamantium claws! As for the rest of us: As you'll discover, Crisis was on one level a twelve issue review of every character DC has ever invented or acquired, with more in common with Astro City on some levels than with Secret Wars. It assumes a pretty deep knowledge of DC continuity and a pretty deep interest in the resolution of various continuity problems that had been baked in over the decades. So it will be interesting to see how it reads to a DC newbie. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 1, 2018 11:05:12 GMT -5
Secret Wars is no more and no less than the realization of every great story every kid with a bunch of action figures ever enacted. If Secret Wars had been published in 1965, it would be universally lauded as a classic today, but it came about in an age when comic book fandom had matured and wasn't looking for books written to the inner adolescent anymore. So, if you're looking for simple fun and big imagination, it's got it. And if you're looking for depth, intelligence, consistency, or originality, ummm...DC's got this Crisis on Infinite Earths thing you might want to check out instead. Also, if it had been published in 1965 it would have been written by Stan Lee rather than Jim Shooter ... and I suppose drawn by Jack Kirby? And Secret Wars II by perhaps Roy Thomas and John Buscema? |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 1, 2018 11:12:28 GMT -5
I'm sure there was something I liked about Secret Wars when I was 14, but now all I can remember about it are all the things I hated.
I would be interested in a Crisis thread! I re-read it in omnibus a couple years back, and still really enjoyed it. I wasn't all that familiar with DC when it first came out, but I was absorbed in the story anyway, and it made me want to find out more. So I guess it was successful in that respect.
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