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Post by Nowhere Man on Mar 2, 2018 6:56:12 GMT -5
That series has the single most awesome Doctor Doom moment in all of Marvel history, as far as I'm concerned! (Your mileage may vary). Even the jaded reader that I was, annoyed by the rushed artwork, the simplistic "fight to entertain some godlike being" theme, the poor characterization of my favourite superhero and the obvious crass merchandizing that surrounded the project, went HOLY F*%$ when Doom made his move. Maybe, but his subsequent downfall as described in earlier the thread (first time I heard about those details) sounds like Superman/Batman-worship at its worst with Marvel's CA substituted, and reinforces my feeling that Shooter would have been better suited to DC than to Marvel. BTW, that's hilarious about Shooter providing rough layouts to artist Zeck: it's almost as if he was determined to make the series as bad as it could be! Shooter really screwed the pooch on that one. Zeck was a fantastic artist and could have been an even bigger star if he hadn't all but quit comics. I read in an interview years ago that Shooter nearly drove him insane with stress with his Secret Wars mandates. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 2, 2018 7:13:32 GMT -5
I remember reading that Shooter told Zeck to " dumb down" the layouts. I'm not sure if it was for the Kenner toy company or not. I refuse to believe he did it just to " mess" with Zeck. I also remember reading that He didn't want to write the series but there was a lot of infighting about use of characters ( Byrne and Claremont, I'm looking a you) so he decided that there would be less strife if the boss did it.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 2, 2018 9:22:30 GMT -5
I'm so tempted to track down Thor on a pink scooter. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when this was green-lighted. Now I want a toy featuring the Punisher on a mauve Segway. How about Punisher as a cosmic Herald of Thanos Ghost Rider? I remember reading that Shooter told Zeck to " dumb down" the layouts. I'm not sure if it was for the Kenner toy company or not. I refuse to believe he did it just to " mess" with Zeck. I also remember reading that He didn't want to write the series but there was a lot of infighting about use of characters ( Byrne and Claremont, I'm looking a you) so he decided that there would be less strife if the boss did it. Dumbed down layouts was part of Shooter's MO. He was a huge advocate for simple and clear storytelling. Shooter also hand a tendency to be more interfering with high profile projects, and there was nothing more high profile than Secret Wars. I guess the infighting is how Shooter justified his decision to himself. I doubt the boss taking the money job for himself lessened any strife in the company. Who would you guys have given the job to? I'm leaning towards Roger Stern. At the time he had already worked on The Avengers, the Hulk and Spidey, and on the X-Men as editor. He also seems slightly less divisive than Claremont or Byrne. Then of course I would have sent George Perez a blank cheque.. |
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Post by rberman on Mar 2, 2018 9:46:22 GMT -5
Who would you guys have given the job to? I'm leaning towards Roger Stern. At the time he had already worked on The Avengers, the Hulk and Spidey, and on the X-Men as editor. He also seems slightly less divisive than Claremont or Byrne. Then of course I would have sent George Perez a blank cheque. I was wondering the same thing! Perez would have been a great choice, as he proved with Crisis and his previous Avengers work, but he was busy with New Teen Titans (and soon, with Crisis) around this time. Byrne also excels at crowd scenes. Arthur Adams did a fabulous job with the character-crowded scenes of the New Mutants/X-Men Asgard story, but he wasn't on the scene yet in 1984. Walter Simonson did well with the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover; that's a thought. Shooter's overall plot (to the level of detail I described it in my first post) was fine. The details of what to do issue-to-issue could have been more interesting, though. I don't have a brilliant idea who would have executed it any better in that era. You really need three or four running storylines concurrently to keep all those characters busy. Claremont is the most obvious choice for that in 1984. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 2, 2018 10:44:26 GMT -5
Funny you mention Art Adams , he did some inks on the last few issues of this series.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 2, 2018 10:54:25 GMT -5
As I recall from the fan press at the time Crisis and Secret Wars were announced about the same time (I want to remember Crisis was announced earlier). The planning for Crisis started as early as mid 1982. Secret Wars seemed rushed to me, possibly to get it out before Crisis and try to steal some of its thunder. I also seem to recall speculation to that effect in the fan press at the time.
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Post by String on Mar 2, 2018 11:38:25 GMT -5
In his intro for the TPB, Tom DeFalco credits DC for helping with the initial creation of Secret Wars, as Kenner first approached DC about a line of action figures based on their characters. Mattel later jumped on the bandwagon and approached Marvel about a similar action figure line but they also wanted a broad overall concept that would tie the line together. Thus Secret Wars.
But I find it very interesting that some chastise SW for being vacuous entertainment while praising Crisis for being a more worthier deep dive into DC history. (This despite that Crisis created more lingering problems that it solved that required editorial band-aid after band-aid, not to mention a few of DC's own crossover events in order to [hopefully] correct these problems. So Marvel isn't solely to blame for where Secret Wars II lead).
Criticize his perceived flaws all you want but I firmly believe that Shooter's mantra of 'Treat every issue as if it's someone's first' should be the Golden Rule of the industry. On this front, Crisis failed miserably. In cleaning house, DC required readers to have an in-depth knowledge of their universe(s) and characters, something that as a 13 year old, I didn't have. So that definitely affected my initial enjoyment of it (in spite of Perez's great art). Whereas with SW, with it's straightforward story and characters, it was a much better read and for me, had better consequences than what Crisis provided.
For example, Crisis derailed the Legion's history forever more while Spidey's alien costume was a brilliant change and ultimately an inventive plot twist.
As for being a 'crappy marketing ploy', the comics landscape is littered with such ploys. GI Joe was a marketing ploy. Transformers was a marketing ploy. Heck, even Star Wars can be considered as such to help bring more attention to Hasbro's toy line. Hardly anything earth-shattering here in these businesses seeking to make more money.
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Post by rberman on Mar 2, 2018 11:46:17 GMT -5
Criticize his perceived flaws all you want but I firmly believe that Shooter's mantra of 'Treat every issue as if it's someone's first' should be the Golden Rule of the industry. On this front, Crisis failed miserably. In cleaning house, DC required readers to have an in-depth knowledge of their universe(s) and characters, something that as a 13 year old, I didn't have. So that definitely affected my initial enjoyment of it (in spite of Perez's great art). Whereas with SW, with it's straightforward story and characters, it was a much better read and for me, had better consequences than what Crisis provided. For example, Crisis derailed the Legion's history forever more while Spidey's alien costume was a brilliant change and ultimately an inventive plot twist. As for being a 'crappy marketing ploy', the comics landscape is littered with such ploys. GI Joe was a marketing ploy. Transformers was a marketing ploy. Heck, even Star Wars can be considered as such to help bring more attention to Hasbro's toy line. Hardly anything earth-shattering here in these businesses seeking to make more money. Your point is well taken that Crisis was not ultimately successful at "fixing continuity" and that it expected a lot more backstory knowledge of readers than Secret Wars did. LSH could have been fixed a lot more easily than DC tried to fix it, by a variety of means. Star Wars is not a great example because it really did start as a movie looking for a toy tie-in for licensing (and succeeding beyond the dreams of Midas), whereas GI Joe, Transformers, Crystarr, Shogun Warriors, Micronauts, ROM, etc. were foremost toys looking for comic book licensing. I have never heard anyone at Marvel say so, but I always wondered whether Spidey's black costume started with someone saying "drawing all that webbing in every panel cramps my hand. Can't he just have a solid color for a costume?" |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 2, 2018 12:45:38 GMT -5
Criticize his perceived flaws all you want but I firmly believe that Shooter's mantra of 'Treat every issue as if it's someone's first' should be the Golden Rule of the industry. On this front, Crisis failed miserably. In cleaning house, DC required readers to have an in-depth knowledge of their universe(s) and characters, something that as a 13 year old, I didn't have. So that definitely affected my initial enjoyment of it (in spite of Perez's great art). Whereas with SW, with it's straightforward story and characters, it was a much better read and for me, had better consequences than what Crisis provided. It's a great mantra for ongoing series, but for a limited series with a single story to tell, I'm not sure it's as important. I had a different experience with Crisis. I didn't even start picking it up until halfway through, but after I read that, I hunted down all the previous issues. I had only a casual knowledge of the DC universe but it still enthralled me. It made me want to delve deeper into their publications. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 2, 2018 12:47:24 GMT -5
Who would you guys have given the job to? I'm leaning towards Roger Stern. At the time he had already worked on The Avengers, the Hulk and Spidey, and on the X-Men as editor. He also seems slightly less divisive than Claremont or Byrne. Then of course I would have sent George Perez a blank cheque. I was wondering the same thing! Perez would have been a great choice, as he proved with Crisis and his previous Avengers work, but he was busy with New Teen Titans (and soon, with Crisis) around this time. Byrne also excels at crowd scenes. Arthur Adams did a fabulous job with the character-crowded scenes of the New Mutants/X-Men Asgard story, but he wasn't on the scene yet in 1984. Walter Simonson did well with the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover; that's a thought. Shooter's overall plot (to the level of detail I described it in my first post) was fine. The details of what to do issue-to-issue could have been more interesting, though. I don't have a brilliant idea who would have executed it any better in that era. You really need three or four running storylines concurrently to keep all those characters busy. Claremont is the most obvious choice for that in 1984. The X-Men certainly would have been written better  ...that was one of the things that bugged me most at the time. But I think Stern is another of the all-time greats; I would have been happy with either. |
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 2, 2018 15:18:53 GMT -5
Who would you guys have given the job to? I'm leaning towards Roger Stern. At the time he had already worked on The Avengers, the Hulk and Spidey, and on the X-Men as editor. He also seems slightly less divisive than Claremont or Byrne. Then of course I would have sent George Perez a blank cheque. I was wondering the same thing! Perez would have been a great choice, as he proved with Crisis and his previous Avengers work, but he was busy with New Teen Titans (and soon, with Crisis) around this time. Byrne also excels at crowd scenes. Arthur Adams did a fabulous job with the character-crowded scenes of the New Mutants/X-Men Asgard story, but he wasn't on the scene yet in 1984. Walter Simonson did well with the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover; that's a thought. Shooter's overall plot (to the level of detail I described it in my first post) was fine. The details of what to do issue-to-issue could have been more interesting, though. I don't have a brilliant idea who would have executed it any better in that era. You really need three or four running storylines concurrently to keep all those characters busy. Claremont is the most obvious choice for that in 1984. I should point out I'm a big Zeck fan. But Perez was the king of crowds, so he would have been a natural choice. Perez's presence would also have freed Zeck to do, say the excellent Captain America vs. Red Skull story (not to mention saved his poor nerves). Losing George Perez was the single biggest mistake of the Shooter era, IMO. Arthur Adams was sadly too slow for a monthly comic, but a a combination of best buddies Stern and Byrne would have made for a pretty great Secret Wars, too. Your point is well taken that Crisis was not ultimately successful at "fixing continuity" and that it expected a lot more backstory knowledge of readers than Secret Wars did. LSH could have been fixed a lot more easily than DC tried to fix it, by a variety of means. Star Wars is not a great example because it really did start as a movie looking for a toy tie-in for licensing (and succeeding beyond the dreams of Midas), whereas GI Joe, Transformers, Crystarr, Shogun Warriors, Micronauts, ROM, etc. were foremost toys looking for comic book licensing. I have never heard anyone at Marvel say so, but I always wondered whether Spidey's black costume started with someone saying "drawing all that webbing in every panel cramps my hand. Can't he just have a solid color for a costume?" Well, Shooter did say the original black costume idea came from a fan. Pretty sure anyone complaining about Spidey's webs would be gently advised to look for a different career path. As for marketing ploys, one might argue that's what comic books are based on. That's why I find it weird when some fans criticize something like Secret Wars or, say, giving Wolverine and Punisher their own regular comic books. Isn't it kinda their duty to give the fans what they want? That said, there is a limit to everything. For me, having a character appear in two different mags is acceptable, and it can be interesting seeing two simultaneous but different takes on a character. But once one character has 3+ titles, it really starts getting ridiculous and diluted. Especially since the third title is more likely to have more... journeymanlike creators, who really shouldn't be working in such a high profile character. Likewise, crossovers that force readers to buy complete Z-list books to get the full story is pretty unfair practice. |
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 2, 2018 18:59:50 GMT -5
But before Secret Wars they didn't have Marvel figures yet, or did they? Marvel has licensed superhero figures since the 1960s. The first, genuine action figures were the costume sets for the legendary Captain Action figure line starting in 1967.  As you can see, there were uniform/accessory sets for Captain America, Spider-Man. Even a Sgt. Fury costume set was produced. While one might wonder how Fury beat out other Marvel heroes of the day (e.g., Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, et al.), one must remember that in the 60s--even as the Vietnam war raged on, military toys were phenomenally popular/successful, with the 12-inch G.I. Joe line leading the way, so Marvel & Ideal (the toy manufacturer behind Captain Action) hoped to cash-in with Marvel's own war hero character. Not a strong idea, as the Sgt.Fury uniform set did not sell nowhere near the level of G.I. Joe, or the superheroes from his own publisher, either. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 2, 2018 19:19:07 GMT -5
Sigh* , I had those as a kid...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 2, 2018 21:17:30 GMT -5
Why does the spider-man doll come with a fire extinguisher, a bicycle pump and a bunch of bananas?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 22:41:04 GMT -5
Don't forget the Marx plastic Marvel figures from the late 60s too...kind non-action figures...  I remember having one or two of them that were still on sale in a Woolworth's in the early 70s. They were like the giant sized army men I had that were the same scale as these, but used sculpts from the smaller armies of military figures I played with. -M |
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...that was one of the things that bugged me most at the time.
